The Ombudsman Winnie Chiu (right) attends the Straight Talk show on TVB, Dec 19, 2023. (PROVIDED TO CHINA DAILY)

The Ombudsman Winnie Chiu is on the show this week, to explain to us how works are normally carried out by her office, for example, what types of complaints can or cannot be filed and investigated, how investigations are carried out, and how people should lodge their complaints.

Check out the full transcript of TVB’s Straight Talk host Dr Eugene Chan’s interview with Winnie Chiu:

Chan: Good evening and welcome to Straight Talk. I'm Eugene Chan. Our guest tonight is Hong Kong Ombudsman, Winnie Chiu. Prior to her appointment in 2019, Chiu was our first female Deputy Commissioner of Police, having served with the police force for 36 years where she gained a wealth of experience in investigation, operations, policy planning, organizational governance and strategic management. Chiu has a strong sense of justice and fairness and is committed to tackling maladministration and improving the public administration. In doing so, we have invited Chiu to tell us about what her role entails and why Hong Kong people need an ombudsman. Welcome, Winnie!

Chiu: Thank you, Eugene.

Chan: I think many people in Hong Kong may have heard of the term Ombudsman and to them it could be quite scary, but then somebody is going to investigate something. So, it is a very good opportunity for you to tell the viewers. What is the role and function of an Ombudsman? 

Chiu: Okay, the Ombudsman, is established under the Ombudsman Ordinance as a statutory body, as an independent channel for complaints handling against government departments and public bodies in maladministration. We investigate complaints of maladministration of government departments and 27 public bodies. We also act as the review adjudicator on complaints of code of access of information on my own volition, I can also initiate direct investigation into systemic issues, basically, we investigate independently, impartially and objectively and redress complainants’ grievance and improve the public administration in Hong Kong.

Chan: Winnie, as I introduced you earlier, you were previously with the police force, and how did you come into this post today? 

Chiu: Well, I responded to an open recruitment following my retirement, and I think this is a good opportunity for me to serve Hong Kong in a wider context, because raising the quality of public administration also means improving the quality of life of Hong Kong citizens.

Chan: Right, that's very admirable. 

Chiu: Thank you.

Chan: So, I want to ask you, Winnie, being somebody from the police force who has been into the management for over 30,000 staff, has that experience helped you in this job, because you're the first Ombudsman with a police background?

Chiu: Okay, first of all, I must say that the Ombudsman does not have jurisdiction over the complaint investigation or maladministration. We only handle police in terms of the complaints on code of access of information. So, I want to make that clear first; and secondly, of course, my background in the police and experience have helped me a lot in terms of my insight into investigation, evidence collection, and overview of the public administration and also serving with the district in the regions in Hong Kong also have led me to have very good insight of various public services, being rendered by different departments and organizations in the districts. 

Chan: Winnie, you have repeatedly mentioned the term called maladministration, which is a term that we don't use every day. What exactly is it? 

Chiu: It is actually defined in the Ombudsman Ordinance. Basically, it means inefficient, bad or improper administration and it may include things like unreasonable conduct, unreasonable delay, abuse of power, and unjust or oppressive procedures, etc. The main allegations made to us about government departments or public bodies are mainly relating to errors, wrong advice or decisions, inaction, ineffective control, lack of response, etc.

Chan: When you say mal-administration, meaning that ... what you have just mentioned I'm sure the viewers will have said if you ask them about the government, they must say they're not very efficient. So, that means you must have many complaints but year? 

Chiu: Actually, we are an independent company channel to handle people's grievances. And we have over 5,000 complaints a year like last year, and also 9,000 enquiries. And like last financial year, we take as an example, the pandemic-related complaints, counted to over 700, almost 14 percent of all our complaints, and which can include things like vaccination and testing, isolation and quarantine orders, various relief schemes, and the disruption of public services. It covers a whole range.

Chan: From what you were saying, if you say, at the actual pandemic, you get a lot of complaints related to that. That means you will see a wave of different complaints at different times. But in general, in the last few years, you have been an Ombudsman, have you seen a changing trend or a new trend emerging in the last few years? 

Chiu: I think during the times when there are social incidents and also pandemic, the complaints are mainly related to that then there is a boost of the number of complaints. For example, sometimes we receive what we call topical complaints, which are very similar complaints on the same subject sent to us in large quantities over the email, and these can go up to tens of thousands. But very often people see trending social media posts, and they sort of get excited about it or affected, and then they complain to us, but they may not be the aggrieved person. Under our ordinance, those who complain to us must not be anonymous, and has to be the person aggrieved or a suitable representative of that aggrieved person. So, it's not like when you read a social media post or newspaper, and know something about something that you don't feel happy about and you complain to us, that might not fall into our jurisdiction of complaint. It has to be related to personal circumstances.

Chan: From what you're saying, people can complain about any maladministration of governments plus 27 public bodies you've mentioned. So, that is quite a wide range of jobs that you're encompassing. Is there any restriction in terms of investigative powers? Can you investigate anything? 

Chiu: Basically we cannot investigate complaints of maladministration if the organization does not fall under the schedule one of the ordinance. For example, the Electoral Affairs Commission, the Town Planning Board, District Council – they are not within those under the ordinance schedule one. For ICAC and the police, we can only investigate cases relating to code of access of information, but not mal-administration because there are separate complaints channels like the IPCC will handle the complaints of the police and also there are actions that are not subject to our investigation. For example, legal proceedings, prosecution decisions, personal matters, land grants conditions, commercial or contractual transactions. These actions that we will not investigate. And also as I mentioned earlier, we will not investigate a complaint if the complainant is anonymous, not traceable or identifiable. These are laid down in the law. And also if the complainant has known the subject matter for over two years, and not made any complaints, we will normally not deal with the investigation as well. 

Chan: Winnie, so what you're saying is actually anything that sort of relates to the aggrieved person, you're kind of the last line of defense if they don't get any response from those bodies. Is that true?

Chiu: Yes, you can say that, because, for example, if a citizen is not happy with certain public service, we encourage that complainant to first lodge a complaint with the organization or department first, especially if it relates to frontline services, or if there is any statutory review set up for that particular organization that should go through that tribunal statutory review mechanism. But if there is no sort of these channels for the complainant, then we're happy to take up the complaint when there is merit in that.

Chan: Let me ask you one last question before we go to the break. And most people when you see someone who is a former police person in charge of an Ombudsman office, and having all these rules and regulations they will think, "Hey, this is another government setup." So, how can they be assured that it is independent? How can they be assured to be fairly treated, rather than just a government department helping another government department?

Chiu: I think this is the biggest misconception about our office. The office of the Ombudsman is not a government department. We operate outside the government structure. We are an independent statutory body that's vested with the powers to investigate, maladministration. Irrespective of which bureau, which department or which organization, we will do our investigation, and in an independent, impartial and objective manner. Our findings are based on the finding of facts and evidence.

Chan: Right, let's take a break now. Viewers, do stay with us and we will be right back.

The Ombudsman Winnie Chiu attends the Straight Talk show on TVB, Dec 19, 2023. (PROVIDED TO CHINA DAILY)

Chan: Thank you for staying with us. We have Winnie Chiu on the show this evening, and she has been talking to us about her role as Ombudsman, and the powers of her office. So, Winnie, on the first part you have told us the Ombudsman office is an independent office, it is not a government department. And anybody who has complaints or grievances about maladministration can come to you and launch a complaint, as long as they are being the aggrieved person. Have I got that right?

Chiu: Yes. Well, barring the things that if the organization that they want to complain about is actually outside of our jurisdiction.

Chan: Oh, of course.

Chiu: For example, some people want to complain about the MTR or the Town Planning Board, they are outside our jurisdiction.

Chan: Right. And also you have categorically said that it is independent, so whoever complains can be assured that they will be treated fairly. But on the other hand, I always see this in the community that when someone is trying to prove to be independent, sometimes they could err on the side that could be unreasonably harsh on the organization being complained against. Have you seen that happen?

Chiu: No because we take an impartial view, we do not advocate on either side, whether it is the complainant or the government department or public bodies, per se. We act as impartial adjudicator and investigator in this matter. And as I said earlier, our conclusions are based on the finding of facts and evidence. We need to convince, not only the complainant, but also the government departments that our findings are reasonable, convincing, and persuadable, otherwise we will lose our credibility. So, that's why we uphold our impartiality as one of our main value and our mission.

Chan: Right. Since you have said that very clearly, I am sure the viewers will start to think if I have got a complaint, I will consider launching it to the Ombudsman, should they are not being treated or they haven't got a satisfactory answer. So, what would your office do when you, say let's go back to actual process base, what will your office do when you receive a complaint, say today? What will you do?

Chiu: Okay, all our complaint investigation will be subject to our assessment. Our assessment will be, first, whether it falls within our jurisdiction; and secondly, whether there is a prima facie case, that is there is sufficient information and merit for us to pursue the investigation. Then we will consider what mode of investigation we would take, whether we would take the full investigation route or more expeditiously being dealt with by enquiry or mediation. Sometimes it's better to go through mediation because it can be settled more quickly, and with a win-win situation. When we have identified any deficiencies during our investigations, we will make observations and also recommendations to the organizations to make improvement. 

Chan: Before you go further, do the complainants get a reply from you, knowing that this has been … being dealt with?

Chiu: Oh, of course, because first of all, we would acknowledge any complaints that we receive within 10 days, and then we will let them know once we start the investigation. And if we do not pursue the complaint, we will also let the complainant know about it and the reason for not pursuing the complaint. And at conclusion, we will let the complainant know the findings of our investigations, and if there are any other recommendations that we've made to the organizations as well. 

Chan: Right. In general, how long do you expect, from launching a complaint, getting your letter within 10 days, and having that the whole process to be resolved? I know you can’t have a fast route, in general, what will be the range of time you expect?

Chiu: We actually have performance pledges and in the last year, we achieved all our performance pledges, which is concluding complaint, investigation, over 80 percent of them within 3 months, and over 99 percent within 6 months. And for mediation, our average lead time is about 11 days.

Chan: Right. Just in the case that the complainant isn't happy about what you have done, can they still lodge another complaint? Can they appeal against your recommendation?

Chiu: Okay, if there are substance in terms of their request for review, we will pursue with a review, and we will personally look into it, and the decision will be final. Of course, if the complainant is not happy, they can also take another legal route, which is judicial review about it our decisions or procedures.

Chan: Right. So, Hong Kong is very fair based on what we call dual-process. Another thing I want to ask you is you also mentioned the term direct investigation earlier. What is direct investigation? I thought all investigations are direct. So, what is it?

Chiu: Okay, the bulk of our investigation is actually complaint based, that means there are complaints made to us, like what I mentioned about 5,000 made to us by complainants. But without any complaints, I can also initiate direct investigation. These are normally on subject matters, which have systemic problems or issues, or they are of significant public interest, that I have to intervene and start an direct investigation. And normally, we would do a preliminary enquiry to see whether the subject is worth our investment in direct investigation. And if I decide to commence with a direct investigation, I normally declare it through a press release to the public, and invite members of the public to give their comments and views and information on the subject. And if necessary, I will also invite relevant sectors or experts to give their opinions as well, so as to enrich our investigation.

Chan: Right, ombudsman, I want to be … this maybe a bit unfair question asking you on this front, because having a 99 percent done within 6 months, I don’t think anyone can ask better than that. But being a Hong Kong person who wants to thrive better, can that time frame be even shortened?

Chiu: Well, we certainly want to shorten it. Sometimes some complaints are resolved very quickly. But then there are times that the complaint case itself is very complex, the complainant may, at different stages, provide more information. And we also need the response from the government departments, and they need time to look through the information, and also give us their analysis. And also sometimes we need to do a few visits to look at the subject matter, maybe at street level, and also do our observations as well. Sometimes it takes time. But we always want to strive to complete the investigation as quickly as possible. But we need the concerted efforts of all parties concerned.

Chan: Right. And I understand that the recommendations that you make to the organizations by the Ombudsman are really not legally binding in such a way. So, some will say that you are sort of a toothless tiger. I mean being a dentist, I understand that term. But what do you say to that?

Straight Talk presenter Eugene Chan (left) interviews The Ombudsman Winnie Chiu on TVB, Dec 19, 2023. (PROVIDED TO CHINA DAILY)

Chiu: Well, even though our recommendations are not legally binding, but almost all of them have been accepted for implementation. And just recently, the chief secretary on behalf of the government tabled in the Legislative Council, the government minute, in reply to my annual report, in which the acceptance of our recommendation and implementation progress is reported. I will also follow up with the progress of the recommendation implementation until they are finalized, or suitable alternative that have been found. And internationally speaking, Ombudsman recommendations in many places are not legally binding as well, but they are very well respected and closely adhered to. Sometimes the persuasive influence and power of the Ombudsman's recommendations are more productive in terms of instigating positive changes.

Chan: Right. Winnie, you have been on this post for nearly 5 years, and you served the Hong Kong Police Force in the management for many years as well. What would you recommend to the Ombudsman office? Or what would you implement to the Ombudsman office in the next 5 to 10 years? Because with more information and technology, innovation technology, everything is changing on the day, can you see improvement still?

Chiu: Well, there is always room for improvement in any organization, including ours, and we are always looking both outside and inside to see what improvements can be made. I think during the pandemic, we have learnt that an organization, such as ours, needs to be accessible to the public, even in the time of crisis. And we managed to do that, barring for the first couple of weeks during the pandemic. But most of the time through using technology, working from home, even our hotline are manned during the pandemic, with usual services accessible to the public. So, that accessibility is very important. Secondly, communicating with various stakeholders during this time is also important. Having empathy, but also missioned to fulfill our work is also important. In the future I think maintaining the agility of the Ombudsman, and also building capacity, using IT to serve our public better, is something that we can be and should be working on. And we are working on it now. 

Chan: So, Winnie, how do you usually engage with the public about the roles and functions of the Ombudsman office? I mean like today, you have clearly told us what should be done and what should not be done. So, how do you usually engage with the public?

Chiu: Well, we have our publicity campaign, maybe recently the audience may see that we got posts, social media posts about the campaign called “Hong Kong Needs a Clear Mirror”. That is our newest campaign, showing the value of having an Ombudsman in Hong Kong, reflecting the truth and conducting impartial, independent, and objective investigation on maladministration, on behalf of the people. We also reach out to the public through, for example, declaring the direct investigation, and inviting public comments. We got quite a lot of that. We reach out to schools, we do school talks. And recently we have launched a youth contest, regarding the Ombudsman, and asking the students to think about creative ways to promote the Ombudsman. And of course, I also attend shows like yours and other events, speaking opportunities. And internationally, I also attend various Ombudsman conferences, and be the speakers and tell the audience about the Hong Kong Ombudsman, what we are doing, and how Hong Kong is doing now.

Chan: Right. I think we will have to wrap it up here. Thank you, Winnie, for sharing with us the vital role of the Ombudsman in Hong Kong society. And we look forward to the continued positive impact of your office on Hong Kong people’s lives. Allow me to share a quote from Elizabeth Berg: “There is incredible value in being of service to others.” Have a good evening and see you next week.