Straight Talk presenter Eugene Chan (left) interviews DLP Piper Hong Kong managing partner Susheela Rivers on TVB, Sept 5, 2023. (PROVIDED TO CHINA DAILY)
DLP Piper Hong Kong managing partner Susheela Rivers is on Straight Talk this week.
As a foreigner who calls Hong Kong home, Susheela urges foreign investors and talents look at the city factually, question the information being fed in Western media, and look at China without a biased view. She believes many foreigners looking for opportunities in Hong Kong are still on the fence at the moment.
Check out the full transcript of TVB’s Straight Talk host Dr Eugene Chan’s interview with Susheela Rivers:
Chan: Good evening and a warm welcome to Straight Talk. Our guest this evening is Susheela Rivers, managing partner at international law firm, DLA Piper based here in Hong Kong. Rivers also has a global role as Global Co-chair Real Estate sector, and she heads up the Asia Pacific Real Estate practice. She is both the Hong Kong chair and the Global Governing trustee at Urban Land Institute, the oldest and largest network of cross disciplinary real estate and land use experts in the world. Rivers is also an executive committee member of the British Chamber of Commerce. Welcome, Susheela!
Rivers: Thank you very much, Eugene. I’m delighted to be on Straight Talk.
Chan: So Susheela, we know that you have extensive experience in the Hong Kong real estate sector, in your role as Chair of the Urban Land Institute of Hong Kong. That’s the reason why we invited you this evening to share with the viewers, provide the viewers with an overview of the current state of Hong Kong, especially why Hong Kong is still a destination for foreign professionals. When I say still, because we used to be a very popular hub. And things have happened over the years. And there's a reason why we want to know more. But before we start, can you just share with us your background and how you have become a professional in Hong Kong?
Rivers: Fantastic! So again, thank you so much for being here. For those of you who know me, I love talking about Hong Kong. And before I answer the question about myself, you know, if I can say, I always like to start something by talking about what I'd like to achieve. And the three things I'd like to achieve today is perhaps to challenge our mindset and our perspective on Hong Kong, to reset our beliefs, and to energize our view and our feeling about Hong Kong. So, a little bit about myself, and my story. My mother is Hong Kong Chinese and she met my Malaysian Indian ethnic father, here in Hong Kong, he was at university. So, Hong Kong is partially, if not wholly, home, and it is my home, for my family and myself. Before Hong Kong, I grew up in Singapore and Malaysia, and then to the United Kingdom where I finished my university degree and worked for many years. I worked in London, coming to Hong Kong 15 years ago was completely a decision and a choice. And interestingly, and I like to share a personal sort of observation of Hong Kong for when we as a family decided to come here. So, I have four children, four adult children, Eugene. And at the time, they were much younger. And the first thing I noticed about coming to Hong Kong is the energy, it's tangible. You feel it, and you still feel that today. The second thing is definitely a city of East Meets West, hasn't changed. And the third thing, it was a place where I felt I could build my career. And I could also raise my family.
Chan: Right. So, Susheela, thank you very much for that introduction, that kind of answer all the questions I have got for you. I was going to ask you what attracted you to come, and why do you stay? So obviously, because this is partly home, and then you mentioned the three reasons that you're here. Hong Kong is very energized and East meets West. So, just want to ask you, you make the decision 15 years ago, and you have already told us why you made the decision. So, would you still make the decision today? The same decision today?
Rivers: I'm going to answer that by talking about what makes Hong Kong so attractive. And for those of us who know me, I like to categorize things simply. So, I'm going to give you five reasons why anybody would choose a place to be for their family or for themselves. So, you need to make a good living, get a good career out of it. You need to be able to raise a family and potentially even to grow old in this place. You need to be enriched. The place potentially should represent your values or you feel you can contribute to its values. And if we are moving down a sort of more philanthropic route and a fulfilled life, you need to be able to give back to that place. So, let's look at Hong Kong. It's a business city. We talked about Hong Kong having a low tax rate, it's a financial city. It's got a skilled workforce. It's got a fabulous legal system. Location. Amazing location, it is beautiful. It's close to Southeast Asia, close to the Chinese mainland, you know, undeniably an advantage. What the city offers: healthcare, education, innovation, future city, all these fantastic reasons, on top of it very safe.
Chan: Right, Susheela, you have…
Rivers: Have I answered all your questions in advance?
Chan: I think you have answered a lot of the questions that the viewers are thinking. But before we … we all know the good points of Hong Kong. Yes, but the reason why I asked you, we used to make the same decision is because in the last few years, most Hong Kong people will say, “wow, what a challenging …” not just a few years, but many years since 2014. And we never … Hong Kong was very peaceful. We were very … people would talk and discuss things, and we come to senses, it is very civilized. I use the word civilized. In the last 10 years, you've seen the social unrest, you've seen the riots, you have the COVID wasn't easy for three years. So, a lot of people left because of our COVID policy. So, I think the reason why I want to ask you do still make the same decision? How would you answer me that?
Rivers: I would say absolutely, yes. And one of the wonderful and unique things about Hong Kong is we who are here have an opportunity to actually be part of a new Hong Kong and Hong Kong will need to change. I think it was that Greek philosopher in 500 BC, Heraclitus who said the only constant is change.
Chan: Yes.
Rivers: We shouldn't fear change. And it's an opportunity to really create together a new identity for Hong Kong. Yes, Hong Kong will be more Chinese. And I'm going to ask everybody, including us and myself, to have a look at our mindset in relation to you know what that means. To look at the situation and Chinese mainland through un-biased eyes. Would I make the same decision? Yes. The thing that I talked about business, location, the city hasn't changed.
Chan: Susheela, you have mentioned very good points of Hong Kong. Another common comment we get is Hong Kong isn’t a great place for bringing up the children. We don't have enough international schools. The education system in Hong Kong sucks. And we’ve heard about that, right? And people say it’s sort of Peking Duck type of education sort of stuffed things into everybody. But you being a mother of four grown up children, and you chose here, does it bother you?
Rivers: And my children went through the schooling system here, they are all over the world now either working or finishing off their tertiary education. Education is not just one thing. It's a full thing, the environment it creates. I mean, if I look at Hong Kong students, and I have many of them who've been through the system in Hong Kong in my office, they are phenomenal. They are bright, they're enthusiastic, they are good people, very hard for me to criticize that. I think when you talk about the change in education, you talk about the change in some of the agenda. I am actually for understanding history in the region. And I urge people to develop a kind of interrogative sense, school is one part of education. Education is so much wider than that.
DLP Piper Hong Kong managing partner Susheela Rivers attends the Straight Talk show on TVB, Sept 5, 2023. (PROVIDED TO CHINA DAILY)
Chan: So far, you've said to me, everything has been fantastic. Right? And also, I've been reading your CV as well. Yes. You have this LAW thing, Leadership Alliance for Women in your firm that means you are constant looking supporting gender balance, and advocate of leadership amongst ladies, which I said to you earlier, our last Chief Executive was already a lady. So, in the last 15 years in Hong Kong, you found Hong Kong have the same opportunities for ladies, females?
Rivers: Me, I am invariably going to say yes, because this is where I built my career. I mean, Hong Kong, we have a lot to be grateful for, for the help that we have in the system. I don't think there's many other countries that can afford that, you know, the support that most professional women can have, in relation to the ease of the city, the efficiency of the city, and the help of the community, which is integral to the success of many people, men and women. Is Hong Kong focus on DEI (diversity, equity and inclusion), I think, very interestingly, I have never met more empowered, strong women than there are in Hong Kong.
Chan: So, Susheela, another thing I'd like to ask you is: last week when we had Andrew Weir here we talked about … what we said earlier, people leaving Hong Kong, but he said that a number of people who went to Singapore actually have returned.
Rivers: Yes.
Chan: So, is it also your observation? And what exactly do you see in your eyes?
Rivers: I would say some people have returned and I can imagine a lot of people who've made new lives and settle their family elsewhere will find it hard to return. But back to the fundamentals of Hong Kong, that hasn't changed. And I'm very focused on new people coming and that is perhaps where we need to turn our attention to, to continue to make Hong Kong very international, very attractive. And the young people attracting all kinds of international young people, I'm more interested in new people coming as well.
Chan: Earlier in the show, I said Hong Kong has gone through many changes, both social and political, and in general cultural. So, would you say all the changes are inevitable? Are they good or bad? What? What is it in your eyes? Because we know the whole world is changing, as you said, the constant is change. So, how do you see Hong Kong with these changes?
Rivers: An opportunity to create your sense of identity? I mean, Hong Kong has always struggled a little bit with its sense of identity, and being Asian, you know, I'm going to embrace and I ask people in Asia to embrace their Asianness. That is a unique quality. Hong Kong is also an international city, and it has to be Asia's world city, it's the international Asia world city. You know, people talk about it being the largest Chinese community internationally. And, you know, the largest international city in the Chinese mainland. How fantastic is that? Is change good or bad? Change is … it can be good or bad. And it is actually within our power to make it good
Chan: Before we go to the break, just a very quick answer. Do you think all these changes make it even more attractive for professionals to come? Or it has deterred a lot of good people who want to come to Hong Kong?
Rivers: I think many people are on the fence because they probably don't fully understand the issues. You know, hopefully you'll ask me later, what can be done …
Chan: Yes, we will do that.
Rivers: … but the issues need to be demystified. Specifically, China needs to be demystified. Hong Kong is part of China. And it's very linked to people's overall view on China. And I'm going to … But please to develop a seventh sense to interrogate what we read. And in return, Hong Kong has to do a much better job in relation to its public relations in relation to Hong Kong.
Chan: Susheela, let's take a break now. We'll come back and viewers do stay with us.
Straight Talk presenter Eugene Chan (left) interviews DLP Piper Hong Kong managing partner Susheela Rivers on TVB, Sept 5, 2023. (PROVIDED TO CHINA DAILY)
Chan: Thank you for staying with us. And we have Susheela Rivers, a legal expert in the real estate sector from international law firm DLA Piper, talking to us about whether Hong Kong is still attractive to foreign professionals. So, Susheela, in the first part of the show, you have categorically said many good things about Hong Kong.
Rivers: Okay.
Chan: You said the location, the people, education is fine. You even brought up your kids here, and you are very impressed with the Hong Kong students. So, viewers, we do have a good education system, or else why would Susheela say they are brilliant students? Before the break, we talked about people sitting on a fence, and we know that one of the reasons may be that implementation of the national security legislation in Hong Kong. There has been a lot of Western rhetoric saying how bad it is, if you come to Hong Kong people might take you away with a reason, all that, etc. In your daily work, as a legal professional, do you see that? I mean because from us, we don't see any evidence of it. But for people who don't understand, they must think Hong Kong becoming a police state. What is your simple answer to that?
Rivers: A simple answer is the NSL (national security law) probably hasn’t got the impact on business the way that people fear, number one. And number two, I would like to make the point that many countries have got national security law legislation. So, Hong Kong is not unique, arguably actually it was slow to the game.
Chan: But then why would people want to use that as a negative to Hong Kong? At least we see in the Western media.
Rivers: Because it came off the back of the protests, and so the link is inevitable. Also I think it is still being looked at through the lens of the Chinese mainland.
Chan: What do you mean by looking through the lens of the Chinese mainland?
Rivers: There is an inherent China bias because of … perhaps, the way it is perceived to be a little bit more controlling, the way in which it could impact freedom of expression. Again I would say all that is still unfolding. Importantly, I would think there are no country that has full freedom of expression.
Chan: So, Susheela, we talked about people sitting on the fence, I mean a very good term you have used, that means people will find Hong Kong very attractive, especially the global economy isn't doing that great, and Hong Kong is right at the doorstep to the Chinese mainland, one of the biggest developing markets. But all these geopolitical tensions are still increasing. Would that deter people from coming to Hong Kong?
Rivers: It is a funny stage to be in the world where we've got geopolitical issues amidst potential recessions in some countries, amidst confusion post-COVID. Would Hong Kong remain attractive? I would urge people to look at the fundamentals, its uniqueness cannot be displaced. Will the geopolitics still play out? It is hard to tell, the only thing I would say and urge people is to develop, again, an interrogative way of looking at things. And if you can, have a visit to these places which are being questioned. I have been to the Chinese mainland many times, I have obviously lived in Hong Kong, I have traveled around the world, to make that comparative analysis.
Chan: Yea when you say that, I kind of remember what Andrew Weir said last week: seeing is believing.
Rivers: Yes.
Chan: That is the term he used. So, the government has tried to reinvigorate the city and they have done a lot of … trawling the talents in a lot of schemes.
Rivers: Yea.
Chan: Are they working?
Rivers: If you look at what it is trying to do in terms of innovation and tech, in terms of the startup companies, the youth, really trying to understand housing, creating digital assets legislation, to try and be more innovative and very importantly, hopefully following the Chinese mainland's lead on that green economy, in a sustainable environment, diverse, etc. If we do all those things and we communicate it well, then it should work. I think the question of whether it is working is still early days.
Chan: You saw that our chief executive and also our officials have visited the Middle East and also some ASEAN countries. Do you think Hong Kong will become attractive to those professionals from ASEAN and the Middle East?
Rivers: Why not? I think if you think of Hong Kong being at the doorstep of the Chinese mainland 1.4 billion, and it is an access point to China, why not? And China must remain international. I often use this analogy, Eugene, if you think of China as the body, in many ways Hong Kong is the international face. And the international face needs to be looked after.
Chan: Right, Susheela, I mean I didn’t realize you can speak Chinese. I was going to ask you because with increasing number of work visas in Hong Kong, they will bring their dependents to come along, and they have their dependent visa. I am sure I've read some of them who want to try to get some jobs in Hong Kong, but to find difficult to get it if they don't speak Chinese. I mean how big a problem from your eyes that if somebody can't speak Chinese in the new Hong Kong, so to speak? Is that problem?
Rivers: Potentially. The importance of Chinese language, Mandarin in particular, has always been the case, even in all kinds of industries, including my own, law firms. But I will say one of the things about Hong Kong that has always been a selling point for it is its English proficiency. And I would like Hong Kong to focus on that as well, to get a kind of proficiency in English. I am wondering if artificial intelligence will challenge that importance.
Chan: Do you see Hong Kong’s proficiency in English is improving? Or stay the same? Or actually going the other way?
Rivers: I think it is going down.
Chan: Yes. How can we do that apart from asking them to watch Straight Talk?
Rivers: I think there is a part to play with schools, with family, with focus, you know we talked about the policies that the country needs to have, and that focus can be start, it is never too late to put something in place because we are thinking long term as well as short term.
Chan: So, maybe the government maybe have to start thinking about this as well.
Rivers: Very important. The internationalization of Hong Kong is key.
Chan: Just one part I want to bring up. I remembered when I first was involved with public services like 20 odd years ago, a lot of the meetings were conducted in English, even professional meetings were conducted in English. But now I think most meetings are in Cantonese. So, how can people improve if they don’t use it?
Rivers: I mean I am going to take a leaf out of the Singapore book, which they have done, Lee Kuan Yew really did well, which is standardizing Mandarin throughout or creating a language where people can communicate in Chinese, and the importance as a first language of English. It's never too late to start. I mean I am constantly impressed by the quality of people to learn and continually spend the time and effort in doing so. That commitment, if channeled properly, will not be difficult.
Chan: Yes. So, we must ask you your expertise because we know you are a real estate person.
Rivers: Okay.
Chan: See Hong Kong is infamous for its high cost of our real estate.
Rivers: Yes.
Chan: The rents and living are one of the highest in the world, used to be but now coming second or third now. So, where are we now, compared to before? Are we going to be more competitive because we are no longer at the top?
Rivers: I think Hong Kong will go through an evolution, the extent of which we will wait to see. Unfortunately or fortunately, because of its unique location and the scarcity of space, and the fact that it is still a small population, it will always have a demand supply issue, provided the country, the city completely opens up, and it is attractive in the way that it has been. Will it be a cheap place to live? No. Will it still hold that top position? Probably not.
Chan: So, Susheela, you are from … you always spend a lot of in Singapore. So, I am going to ask you because I read in the South China Morning Post in March that the rent in Singapore has gone up like 40 percent.
Rivers: Yes.
Chan: And about 7 out of 10, all these corporation are considering to relocate their staff. So, how is Hong Kong comparing to that? Will we get the relocation from Singapore to Hong Kong? And also do you think Hong Kong is also facing the issue?
Rivers: I mean Hong Kong remains expensive, so it will never be looked at as an affordable jurisdiction and relocation for that reason. If people come here, it is because of business reasons, and for all the reasons I have mentioned. Singapore, again, is really feeling it because it has never been that environment where rents are so high. And I would say I can see that the local community is trying to fight that, and the Singapore government is trying to create that kind of affordable housing as well. So, they have done that very well. And one thing that Hong Kong really is focused on and should spend a lot of time which it is doing, is that affordable housing.
Chan: Right. Susheela, we only got time for two more questions.
Rivers: Okay.
Chan: So, we have to use the time wisely. From the perspective, you know that the chief executive is writing his second Policy Address right now. So, now I will give you the platform, what will you say to John Lee?
Rivers: I would say Lee, three things. You know, communicate well with your people, communicate well internationally. Listen and really communicate with your heart because the people are so keen to listen.
Chan: Is he doing that right now?
Rivers: I think he is trying to do that, yes, I think he is trying to do that. But work on that PR machine because we have got the weight of media who have got their own agenda, so we have got to work hard on that. Focus on the five things I talked about what is important about Hong Kong. And also really leverage of what the Chinese mainland's focus is, which is the green economy. And that can really be a very good topic.
Chan: Right, any more advice? Anything the CE should do?
Rivers: Again, the internationalization of Hong Kong.
Chan: Maybe increase the proficiency in English as you said?
Rivers: Yes.
Chan: Right. What advice would you give to foreign professionals who are considering relocating to Hong Kong? Short answer.
Rivers: Okay, short answer, three things: look at Hong Kong factually, interrogate the information, look at China without biased lens, and look at yourself as a contributor not always receiving.
Chan: Thank you. So, I am afraid that is all the time we have.
Rivers: Thank you.
Chan: I wish I had more time with you, Susheela, for sharing your first-hand experience of a foreign professional settling in Hong Kong, and reassuring our viewers of all the advantages this city offers, the rule of law, freedom of speech, and high quality of life that make Hong Kong an attractive destination for foreign professionals. Have a good evening and see you next week!
