Horace Cheung Kwok-kwan, deputy secretary for justice, is on Straight Talk this week.

Cheung talks about Hong Kong’s status as an international legal center and the broader perspective of our justice system.

Check out the full transcript of TVB’s Straight Talk host Dr Eugene Chan’s interview with Horace Cheung:

Chan: Good evening, I'm Eugene Chan and welcome to Straight Talk. Our guest tonight is the deputy secretary of justice, Horace Cheung Kwok-kwan. Prior to his appointment to the Department of Justice, Cheung was a solicitor in private practice. He also served as a member of the Central and Western District Council and was elected to the Legislative Council. He was vice-chairman of the Democratic Alliance for the Betterment and Progress of Hong Kong (DAB) and was appointed as a Non-Official Member of the Executive Council under the previous administration. This evening, he has joined us to talk about Hong Kong's status as an international legal center. Is it still intact? Welcome, Horace!

Cheung: Hello, Eugene!

Chan: Horace, as we know, our legal system has always been renowned for the people of Hong Kong and especially for our success since 1997. The World Justice Project Rule of Law Index ranked Hong Kong as globally 23rd out of 142, even ahead of the United States and many European countries. But recently, our status has been brought to the news again because two of our non-permanent judges of the Court of Final Appeal resigned. Will that have any impact on Hong Kong's rule of law?

Cheung: As you just pointed out, Hong Kong still ranks very high in the global Rule of Law Index. Certainly, we must fully recognize the contribution made by the non-permanent judges to Hong Kong, especially in the aspects of the development of jurisprudence, and the exchanges with other common law jurisdictions. But I can say the non-permanent judge arrangement is not a prerequisite for the rule of law in Hong Kong. When we fully recognize that, we must admit that people will come and go in institutions.

Chan: Right.

Cheung: Yes. So, when we have judges, they may leave Hong Kong for whatever reasons. We have successfully secured two new appointments in the last couple of years.

Chan: Right.

Cheung: Yeah.

Chan: So, Horace, I think, for the benefit of the viewers, maybe not too many people have realized that since 1997, under Article 92 of the Basic Law, we actually have recruited judges from other jurisdictions, as you said, to support our Chief Justice. Maybe you can tell the viewers, how does this Court of Final Appeal work? How many of these non-permanent judges do we need? And we also have something called the permanent judges too, right?

Cheung: Certainly, I would say this is a very unique characteristic of the Hong Kong Judiciary that (at) our Court of Final Appeal, we have the arrangement of non-permanent judges. We now have a panel of non-permanent judges and for every case in the Court of Final Appeal, it will be heard by a full court of five judges, among which one of them will be a non-permanent judge.

Chan: Right.

Cheung: Yeah. So, each time when the Court of Final Appeal has a hearing, they will invite a non-permanent judge to sit in so that the non-permanent judge can give his views, especially the views from other common law jurisdictions that is the system as guaranteed under the provisions of the Basic Law as you rightly point out. We enjoy the advantages of this arrangement and there's no reason to change it.

Chan: Just now when you talk about the non-permanent judges, are they all from overseas or do we have Hong Kong judges as well?

Cheung: Actually, some of them may come from overseas, but there are other non-permanent judges locally, mainly from among the retired judges of the local courts.

Chan: Right. Just now you mentioned that people come and go, it's very common and I believe we have now eight non-permanent judges who are from overseas. Where are they from?

Cheung: They come from many different common law jurisdictions such as the United Kingdom, Canada, and Australia, but certainly we welcome all eminent judges from all other common law jurisdictions all over the world. So, we will not rule out that we can invite other eminent judges from other Common Law jurisdictions.

Chan: I read that other places which also practice common law are New Zealand, South Africa, Ireland, India, Pakistan, etc.

Cheung: We will not rule out any possibility. The only one condition is that they will be very outstanding judicial officers in the world.

Chan: Right and even Singapore, I just missed that point. Just coming back to this point, it's quite unique that we have this system, and people come and go. So, why do people want to say Hong Kong has been affected?

Cheung: I would say actually, there's some misconception about the situation in Hong Kong because, as you know, many people in Western countries receive information from their media outlets. So, if there's no unbiased information in the Western media, certainly they may have some kind of misconceptions. But actually, in the last couple of years, Hong Kong, we held many different significant legal conferences and events in Hong Kong. And every visitor, I would say every visitor to our conferences and events when they come to Hong Kong personally, they will know what's happening in Hong Kong. They all say that Hong Kong is still a very attractive and stable community. It is quite different from the perceptions that they receive in the Western media.

Chan: Right, Horace. Lord Sumption, one of the resigned non-permanent judges has made some critical comments on Hong Kong's rule of law. Basically, what he said was that he felt that the freedom to adjudicate severely has been limited because since the National Security Law, since Article 23 and somewhat we've reactivated colonial-era legislation, he's saying that the judges now have more difficulty making a fair judgment. What do you say to that?

Cheung: We must avoid bias and we must listen to the views of other judges. So, let's see what they are saying, for example, Anthony Rogers, KC, who was the former senior vice president of the Court of Appeal in Hong Kong. He made a remark that it is regrettable that such a senior judicial officer would break the rule, would break the principle that no comment should be made on the case, on the legal proceedings, which are still alive.

Chan: Right.

Cheung: Yeah, that is a harm to rule of law. He also remarked that actually Lord Sumption’s statement is a political statement of his own personal dislike and it’s not a serious jurisprudence.

Chan: Right.

Cheung: Yes. And let's see what other judges say, such as Sir Anthony Mason, who was the Chief Justice of the High Court of Australia. He fully recognized the non-permanent judge arrangement in Hong Kong, and he fully endorsed the views of the non-permanent judges who still remain in Hong Kong. And also, the other departing non-permanent judges, they reiterate that Hong Kong still enjoys a very independent judiciary; they still firmly believe the independence of the judicial officers in Hong Kong. So, we should avoid bias and listen to the views of all the other judges. And then you will come to a fair comment.

Chan: Right, I see. I think for the viewers’ benefit, I think the Court of Final Appeal each year will do how many cases?

Cheung: Less than 100.

Chan: So, that means each non-permanent judge may have a chance or no chance to sit on the cases. So, it's not easy for them to make comments like that. Especially since they haven't been actually on the job.

Cheung: Yeah, yeah. So, I would say you must listen to the views of all the other judges.

Chan: Right. And actually, one of our legislators, one of our Executive Council member, Ronny Tong, has said that this non-permanent judge present is very much like a perception for the full people because nowadays when our Court of Final Appeal has been quite matured after 27 years, maybe it's time for us to revisit this whole arrangement. And what's your view on that?

Cheung: As I mentioned before, actually this non-permanent judge arrangement is guaranteed under the provisions of our Basic Law. And actually Hong Kong takes advantages of this arrangement, there's no reason why we have to change it.

Chan: Right.

Cheung: Yeah. We will still keep this arrangement in the Hong Kong Judiciary. But certainly, it doesn't mean that we will not do other things to reinforce our rule of law.

Chan: Okay, just before we go to the break, one area that I'm sure many people will be worried about because in the last few years, you heard about our government officials being sanctioned, and even some of our prosecutors. And you being new to the job, are you worried that you're being sanctioned by other countries because there's already been proposed imposition of visa restrictions on Hong Kong officials by the US Department of State?

Cheung: I think many people know that the United States uses sanctions as a weapon to threaten anyone they dislike. The latest example is the fact that the House of Representatives of the United States passed an act to ask for sanctions against the International Criminal Court.

Chan: Right.

Cheung: So, you must know that they use this as a weapon, but I'm a government officer to the Hong Kong government. Actually, as a government officer, we are serving Hong Kong. We are serving our own country. We should not bend to other foreign governments, especially when it is harmful to the national security of our country. The United States has always been contradictory. As you can see, two presidential candidates embrace Tik Tok which they all along claimed harmful to their national security. So, what we can do is just do what we are doing, which we consider the right thing. We shouldn't bend to other foreign powers.

Chan: So, in short, are you worried?

Cheung: No.

Chan: Thank you. Let's take a break now. But, viewers, stay tuned. We will be right back.

Chan: Thank you for staying with us on Straight Talk. Deputy Secretary of Justice Horace Cheung is with us, talking about whether Hong Kong’s status as an international legal center is still intact. So, Horace, in the first half, I think it is very obvious that you made the point that everything in Hong Kong remains the same, and you’re confident that the rule of law will continue to serve Hong Kong very well.

Cheung: Yeah.

Chan: We have talked much about the so-called unfair comments on Hong Kong’s rule of law. Maybe let’s start looking at the future for Hong Kong. And knowing that we have a very vibrant legal community that we got some very renowned barristers, we have some very large international law firms, and also some medium- and small-sized firms. How are we all doing in Hong Kong at the moment?

Cheung: Well, certainly there may be some tough times for some law firms in Hong Kong because of the global economy. The global economy is not doing very well. But we are quite lucky that we still have a very big opportunity ahead – that is the GBA (Guangdong-Hong Kong-Macao Greater Bay Area). I would say the GBA is a very good opportunity for Hong Kong. Why? Because now the legal practice in Hong Kong, we only serve 8 million people in Hong Kong, but we can serve over 80 million people in the Greater Bay Area. This is a very great opportunity.

And under the “One Country, Two Systems” in Hong Kong, we are privileged to maintain our unique common law systems, which is quite unique because we are the only one common law jurisdiction in the country. So, we can take some unique advantages under the “one country, two systems” policy. But, certainly, because of the two different legal systems, there may be problems and hardships for people-to-people exchanges in two different jurisdictions. And so, we have to sort out the problems arising from discrepancies of two different legal systems. That's why we are now carrying out an action plan on construction of rule of law in the GBA, under which the focus is on the interface of mechanism, regulatory frameworks, and legal talent. And one very prominent feature is the introduction of the GBA lawyers.

Chan: I see.

Cheung: So, now Hong Kong legal practitioners, they are eligible to become GBA lawyers, they can serve the clients in both Hong Kong and other GBA cities. That would be a very great opportunity for the Hong Kong legal professionals.

Chan: Right. Horace, when you mentioned about that, it reminds me, brings up the memory that our Coalition of Professional Services, led by CY Leung … we had actually went to the mainland under CEPA arrangement. There have been Hong Kong law firms partnering with mainland law firms. Just give you something for you to reflect, for example, our dental profession now is being faced by challenges or competitions from the mainland dental professionals. I am sure everybody read in the news, for some people. Will that happen to the legal profession as well?

Cheung: Our legal professionals have their own unique advantages, especially in international law practice.

Chan: Right.

Cheung: Because the Hong Kong legal talents, they are familiar with common law, they are familiar with the civil law, and our country's legal system. They have very strong connection with international communities, which is very important for the international legal practice. So, that's why we enjoy the unique advantages and we can have a very good collaboration with our counterparts in mainland.

Chan: Right. Another area that Hong Kong has been quite renowned for is the mediation. And I read that the International Organization for Mediation is going to be established here. Maybe you can tell us more about that and how does that maintain Hong Kong’s competitiveness?

Cheung: Mediation actually is an alternative dispute resolution, which is more flexible, cheaper, and more efficient than the traditional litigation. And the IOMed, the International Organization of Mediation, actually is the first intergovernmental organization and international organization, which highlights the importance of mediation in resolving international disputes, country-to-country, government-to-government.

So we are quite lucky that the IOMed is the first international legal organization headquartered in Hong Kong. It can raise our international profile, reinforce the status of Hong Kong as an international legal and dispute resolution services in the Asia-Pacific region. And this IOMed, we have chosen the old Wan Chai police station as the headquarters for the IOMed. And it’s expected that the headquarters will be ready by the end of next year.

Chan: Right.

Cheung: For their early commencement of the operation.

Chan: Right. So, Secretary, we know since we are talking about Hong Kong’s competitiveness, I understand you were in Xinjiang recently for the 8th China-Eurasia Expo, you just came back a few days ago. So, what is the significance of that event? And especially how is that going to help our legal profession?

Cheung: Xinjiang actually is a very important node in the ‘Belt and Road Initiative’ and it connects our country to the Eurasia regions, especially in building up very close ties with the neighboring countries. They are developing very rapidly in recent years, not only in the traditional industry of tourism, but also in new areas, such as new energy, transport, and telecommunications. So, I understand that many Hong Kong enterprises are now exploring the opportunities in this region, I mean in Xinjiang, and in cross-boundary projects with neighboring countries, etc., in the Belt and Road Initiative.

I'm very confident that the Hong Kong professionals, especially those of the financial services and the legal services, they can make use of their advantages in the development of Xinjiang and in the development of the Belt and Road.

Chan: So, really what you are saying is Hong Kong is serving as a very good super-connector?

Cheung: Yes. For the rest of the Belt and Road Initiative.

Chan: See, the Belt and Road Initiative seems to be quite a faraway sort of possibility for Hong Kong. Do you think that it is getting closer and closer since we are now more involved?

Cheung: Yeah, you are quite right that we are becoming closer and closer because in the past, you may think that Belt and Road is very far away from Hong Kong. But now you can see, from Xinjiang, we can have a very close connection with the neighboring countries to China. We can make use of Xinjiang as a platform or as a springboard for professionals or for the Hong Kong enterprises to have projects with neighboring countries. So, I think the Belt and Road Initiative is no longer far away from Hong Kong. We have to make good use of the opportunity.

Chan: Right. Secretary, I am going to ask you the last question; it is going to be sort of a wider perspective question. You know that Hong Kong, we have been trying to get more talents to come to Hong Kong, I mean the whole world is lacking good people. And I am sure, since people, by now the viewers, will know that Hong Kong has a very sound system of rule of law. And how do your department, what role would you play in the training of the talents so that we not only help Hong Kong but also the whole country as a whole to be connected to the rest of the world?

Cheung: As announced by our chief executive in his Policy Address last year, we are now carrying out a project to build up the Hong Kong International Legal Talents Training Academy. Because of the long-standing experience and reputation of Hong Kong in international practice, we can do a good job in the training of legal talents, who are, who have a global vision, who are familiar with the common law, civil law, and international law. We not only focus on the local legal talents but also on the talents in the mainland. And even further, we will target the legal talents in the Belt and Road region in the long run.

We have overwhelming support from the central government, we have very positive feedback from our mainland counterparts. And we have confidence that we can train the legal talents for Hong Kong and for our country, and for the Belt and Road region.

Chan: Horace, quick answer from you – being a solicitor, we know that we have a few law schools in Hong Kong. There have been some talks of not enough work for the junior lawyers. With what's happening, will you recommend our youngsters to get into legal profession?

Cheung: Yeah, it is still a very good profession because as I mentioned, the GBA is a very big platform for the legal professionals in Hong Kong, especially the young legal profession. So, don’t miss the opportunity.

Chan: Right. Thank you, Horace. It is reassuring to know that the Department of Justice continues to uphold the integrity and independence of Hong Kong's legal framework so that our status as an international legal center remains intact. This is indeed vital for our city’s future.

Have a good evening and see you next week!