Straight Talk presenter Eugene Chan (left) interviews Secretary for Environment and Ecology Tse Chin-wan on TVB, Jan 30, 2024. (PROVIDED TO CHINA DAILY)

Secretary for Environment and Ecology Tse Chin-wan is on the show this week.

Tse says the municipal waste charging scheme is aimed at changing Hong Kong people’s waste disposal culture rather than causing trouble, and that it can be done as shown by other cities in Asia.

Check out the full transcript of TVB’s Straight Talk host Dr Eugene Chan’s interview with Tse Chin-Wan.

Chan: Good evening. I'm Eugene Chan and welcome to Straight Talk. Today we are privileged to have with us Tse Chin-wan, secretary for environment and ecology. Tse brings nearly four decades of experience from our Environmental Protection Department, serving on a wide range of professional and senior managerial levels. He became a deputy director of the Environmental Protection Department in 2013, and then undersecretary for the environment in 2017, during which time he helped spearhead the formulation of policies on air quality, waste management, climate action and conservation. He has been secretary for environment and ecology under the current administration for 18 months. We are going to ask him to help us all understand the soon to be introduced waste disposal, so-called charging for municipal solid waste. Welcome, Secretary Tse! 

Tse: Hello! Nice to be here. 

Chan: Thank you for coming, Secretary. As you know, as the title of the show goes, “Why are we talking about rubbish?” on Straight Talk. In a city like Hong Kong, where space is limited and we have a very high population density, the management of waste is not just a logistical challenge, but a critical environmental concern, and I'm sure there's a reason why we're doing all these environmental protection. Can we start off with telling our viewers why we need a new scheme?

Tse: Well, first of all, I have to say that while the government introduces the waste charging scheme, it is not for collection of money from the community. Actually, it is a scheme to help promote the development of a green living culture in Hong Kong, so that we can promote a reduction of waste, as well as to promote recycling of the resources in the city. Waste charging has been implemented in many cities all over the world. Well, I think the first cities were introduced almost half a century ago, even in Asia. Well, cities like Seoul in Korea have introduced waste charging for over 20 years and made tremendous improvements in waste reduction and the promotion of recycling. We believe for Hong Kong, we should do the same as well to develop our own green living culture and waste reduction and recycling culture also. 

Chan: Secretary, I just want to ask you, I mean being ... we do create waste, like when you go to buy something, you come out with a bag. Someone gives you a present, you unwrap it, it's also waste of paper as well. Is there any trend in personal wastes? Is there any increasing trend or decreasing trend per capita in Hong Kong? Do you have any data on that?

Tse: We'll look at the waste disposal trend. Actually it’s very well-correlated to what we call the GDP, because basically, waste production is a result of our economy. Together with the growth of our economy, the waste will increase. I mean, in Hong Kong now, each day we are producing 11,000 tons of garbage. 

Chan: 11 tons? 

Tse: 11,000 tons ... 

Chan: 11,000 tons.

Tse: ... per day. That is terrible! And most important of all, while in Hong Kong, because of our history, while the wastes are buried in the landfills multiple times, while the very precious land in Hong Kong … and, therefore, I think it is very important for us to reduce the production of waste. And also, we need to develop our own recycling industry.

Chan: So, Secretary just now you said that with the GDP correlating with the amount of rubbish that we have, does Hong Kong people produce more rubbish than the rest of the neighboring cities? Just a matter of interest. 

Tse: For example, if we compare to Seoul or compare to other cities in Japan, in terms of economic development, we should be of a similar level, we are roughly … actually we are producing well, almost double the waste compared to them. 

Chan: Really? 

Tse: Yes, yes. And therefore I think it is very imminent for us to do something in order to reduce our waste production.

Chan: Right, thank you for sharing that data, because I'm sure not many viewers realize we're producing more garbage than the other cities. So, what exactly do we have to do to support the scheme?

Tse: Well, basically, people will need to do things, in simple terms, just to do one thing under the waste charging scheme. Of course, that is not the end of it. We want people to do more, because the objective of the waste charging scheme is to promote waste reduction and recycling. Well, I will talk about that later. And in simple terms, after the waste charging scheme was implemented, for example, now we are throwing waste, maybe in some ways in bins in the back staircase, or there in a waste collection room somewhere in the floor in the building, or you use a plastic bag to wrap your waste and before you put it into those places. Well, after the (implementation of the) scheme, you need to buy a designated bag and use that bag which is green in color to wrap the waste and then throw it in the same places as before. Through buying the bag, you are going to pay for the volume of it. If you're going to produce more waste while you have to buy more bags or buy a larger bag in order to wrap it. And so that will be the sort of waste you'll have to pay for it. Yeah. And because you have to pay for it then, I think from experience in other cities, people will change their behavior. They will pick up the recyclables from those waste in order to reduce the money to buy all the bags, and then you pick the plastic bottles thrown out.

Chan: So, it's interesting. You're saying that we are not charging. 

Tse: We're not doing this to make money for the government. 

Chan: Right.

Tse: But we are charging for the bags so that people will feel the pain when they have to buy a bag. The more you throw away, the more you have to pay to buy more bags, right? So, in a way, the benefit of the charging is basically has a deterrent effect. 

Chan: Hopefully that we won't throw out as much away, is that correct? 

Tse: Yes. That is precisely the purpose of waste charging, changing people's behaviour.

Chan: With other cities that you've said have also gone through this waste charging, do they charge in similar ways as well?

Tse: Oh, yes. I think in Asia, well in Korea and also in Taipei, I think the waste charging rates are very similar. Yes, same model of management too.

Chan: Alright. So, I'm sure that the viewers realize it in the last few days from news reports, there are a lot of concerns from the property management industry, from the residents, the corporations, even the cleaners, and the general public, a lot of questions. So, I mean as a district counsellor myself, one of our jobs is to report from the low level to the high level. So, there's a reason why we have this show today. I'm going to ask you a list of questions. Hopefully we get some quick answers so that our constituents, our stakeholders will understand more. So, firstly, some have said that citizens will just throw things away, away from the home now since it could have cost them to wrap it up and put it in the bin. They're going to throw it maybe in the back staircase or someone's houses or even on the street. How are you going to prevent that?

Tse: Well, I think the purpose of charging is to develop a culture and to change people's behavior. And of course, I think at the very beginning, while some people will do that, yeah, but I think the experience in other places is that where the scheme is being introduced, many people will change their behavior. And these people will influence others, and through these influence, the community will get more and more people to do it. And then, well, it takes time. Usually, it takes about three to five years, then most of the community will be converted and, therefore, we will be developing a new culture.

Chan: When you say that it develops a culture, culture takes time. 

Tse: Yeah.

Chan: What if ... I'm just postulating that if people start to throw in more things on the street, on the rooftops, or even it may get to us a dirtier Hong Kong, and that's going to affect our tourism as well. So, has your department considered this at all?

Tse: Oh, yes. I think well, actually, this term of government … I think you're aware that we are very determined to clean up the city. And therefore we have stepped up our enforcement of people fly tipping waste all over the places. We have also increased the penalty ticket for fly tipping, from the previously HK$1,500 to HK$3,000. Yeah. And therefore, no matter when and whatever places, littering will be caught. We will step up our enforcement against littering.

Chan: When you say enforcement, are you going to set up a night enforcement team so that people won't, I mean, we will guess people will start throwing things away early hours, very late at night, too. Would you be having a night enforcement team going around the city?

Tse: Well, we'll respond to complaints and, therefore, if there are some black spots while people are doing that frequently in some places, yes, well, we send people out to catch those people. But sometimes, people in Hong Kong, actually they are rational. You mentioned that people try to throw rubbish away because they want to save money. Yeah, they want to save money. And therefore they should actually look at it in a rational way. If you're going to throw away those litters, if you do it everyday, sooner or later you will be caught. Once you are caught, at least you'll be fined HK$3,000. HK$3,000 is sufficient for you to buy those bags for several years.

Chan: Fair enough. 

Tse: Therefore, if the purpose of doing that is to save money, it is, of course, much better for you to buy those bags rather than to throw those litters away. 

Chan: Good point. Let's take a break now and, viewers, stay tuned. We will see you right back here on Straight Talk in just a few moments.

Secretary for Environment and Ecology Tse Chin-wan attends the Straight Talk show on TVB, Jan 30, 2024. (PROVIDED TO CHINA DAILY)

Chan: Thank you for staying with us. The secretary of environment and ecology, Tse Chin-wan is on the show this evening, and we have been talking about the department's plan to charge for municipal solid waste. So, secretary, in the first half of the show, you said very clearly that this scheme is mainly to reduce the wastage and rubbish for Hong Kong because we are producing so much, 11,000 tons a day, which is a lot. And it is causing concerns to our environment, and we are trying to change the culture of people. Hopefully, in 3 to 5 years’ time, we all have a better respect to our environment, and it is going to be a much greener Hong Kong. And one thing that we have talked about earlier is about the concerns of people. And in particular, this green bag we have here, maybe you can tell people what you expect them to do? For example, one of the sort of eye-catching story is talking about the broomstick, what can you do about a long broomstick that doesn’t fit into the bag? And some say that you can cut into half, or you could do whatever. So, maybe you can tell the viewers what you expect us to support the scheme with the bag. And how about those big items? What do we have to do?

Tse: Right. Well, I explain it very briefly. After the scheme is implemented, what people should do is … well, in the past, you use a plastic bag, maybe it's a white bag or black in color. Well, you just go to buy a designated bag, like this one, we have 9 sizes of different sizes.

Chan: 9 sizes, okay.

Tse: And, therefore, you can buy one suitable for yourself. And then you wrap those waste well with the bag, and then throw it away exactly in the same way you have done before. 

Chan: So, very simple.

Tse: Very simple, yeah, not difficult for you. Just buy the bag and then throw it away, exactly in the same way as before.

Chan: Then why are people so concerned? They are talking about the bag is going to be easily poked through, and then you will be fined if it cuts open the bag, is that true?

Tse: Well, earlier there were some rumors spreading around.

Chan: Yes.

Tse: And a video in the web that says those bags can be broken very easily. And, actually, the bags shown in the video were false bags, not actually our designated bag. Our designated bags are just normal bags that can be used for waste disposal, just like other waste bags, actually they are the same. So, we do not have that sort of worry. And that is why after we have these bags sold in the market, when people see the actual bags, they will understand that these are normal waste bags, no need to worry about the quality of the bags themselves. They can be used to wrap waste, just in the same ways as before.

Chan: I have got one question for you. In the past, even today, if you are going to throw some waste away, I mean you have your white or black rubbish bag at home to wrap it up. Or sometimes, when you go out to have a meal, they give you a bag to carry some leftover food back.

Tse: Yeah.

Chan: And some will use that bag to wrap your waste.

Tse: Right.

Chan: And now looks like we are putting … we used to use those bags as a rubbish bag, and now we are buying that new designated bag.

Tse: Yep.

Chan: Are we not creating more bags for decomposition for a long term? Are you worried about that?

Tse: Well, two points: one is that we are encouraging people to change their behavior, to reduce bags, and therefore you know that we had a campaign before to promote people to bring your own bag. Don’t use those plastic bags provided by the supermarkets or other suppliers. But nonetheless, those plastic bags are not recyclable. If you have those white bags or black bags at home, you can take those to our green community stations where they can collect for recycling, where they won’t dump as waste. And also now we are talking, not actually talking, we have agreed with the supermarkets and those chain stores that they will also show some bags in retail. And therefore if you go to a supermarket, you have forgotten to bring your own bag, you can buy a designated bag there.

Chan: Oh that is a smart idea.

Tse: And then that designated bag, when you take it home, you can use it to wrap your waste. And therefore you won’t waste any bags. 

Chan: Right. That is a good way to make that bag more use than just throwing rubbish waste, isn’t it?

Tse: Right.

Chan: Sorry about I have to go on. Still one more question on the bags because there are a lot of rumors about this green bag. They are saying that there are even fake garbage bags online. So, how do you expect the actual cleaner, when they collect the rubbish from any households, how can they tell whether that bag is authentic or fake? What if they found out a definitely fake bag, then what do they do with the garbage? Do you have any guidelines for them?

Tse: Actually, we do not expect those cleaners to try to identify which bags are true, are genuine, which are …

Chan: Fake. 

Tse: … false. We do not expect them to do so because I think the responsibility to catch those people who are selling those fake bags lies with the government. We are working with the Customs to catch those people. And we also send our staff to inspect shops, to make sure they are selling genuine bags. But for the residents or for normal people, it is very easy to identity those shops because we will have a label. If you go to those shops with the labels, authorized retailers, then the bags you are going to buy will be authentic, will be the genuine one. And if you do not bother to look at those labels, then go to those big chains or supermarkets, and those convenience stores, then it is guaranteed you are going to buy the genuine bags.

Chan: All right. Let me ask one further question on bags. There are some aged homes for the elderly. They said that they will have more waste everyday, like diapers or incontinence pads, or whatnot; some of them need to change a few times a day. So, they are going to have more garbage. And I understand that the bureau, the government may give some subsidies to those less privileged or less well-off people. So, in a way, while this is a scheme they are not charging for charging, will it end up that the so-called those who follow the rules are subsidizing the rest of the community on the charges? Will you agree to that?

Secretary for Environment and Ecology Tse Chin-wan talks to Straight Talk presenter Eugene Chan on TVB, Jan 30, 2024. (PROVIDED TO CHINA DAILY)

Tse: Well, under the scheme, for those people receiving what we call the Comprehensive Social Security Assistance, and also people who are receiving the Old Age Allowance, for each person, they will be receiving HK$10 more. And therefore we know that for those people in need, they need some assistance. So, therefore, say for a family of three members who are receiving CSSA, they will be receiving about HK$30; and for four people, they will be getting HK$40. If they do a little bit to separate the recyclable etc, those money should be sufficient for them. And of course, you have mentioned about those elderly people, maybe for those who are disabled, they might need more support. And, therefore, together with the Social Welfare Department, we will be talking to the trade. First we will try to arrange some kind of practice to teach them how to work under the scheme. And then to identify whether there is any problem, where the government can help and also provide some support. Of course, we do not want to create unnecessary problems to them. But if they practice waste reduction and also recycling, it should also help a bit.

Chan: Let me ask you a direct question. While the government should pay subsidies to those people on CSSA grounds or people with needs, and also it is charging the community for buying the bags, whatever, is this the right time to implement the scheme, where our economy is under severe challenge? I mean everybody understands a lot of businesses are not doing well, shops are closed, and I am sure we are all waiting for the Budget and see what is going to happen with the Budget. Are you concerned? Launching it right now at this time, is it an appropriate time?

Tse: Yes, I think that is one reason why I allow more time for people to understand it, allow more time for us to demonstrate to people how it will be done, so that people will see that it can be implemented in a relatively simple manner, it is not too disturbing to people. And actually if the scheme is implemented successfully, it will help to take away those recyclables, or separate those recyclables, for recycling. The collection of those recyclables and also the recycling process for downstream, will help develop a new green industry in Hong Kong. And for example, for those green community stations established by the Environmental Protection Department, you go there, you see that they have employed many young people there. 

Chan: Okay.

Tse: If the volume of the recyclables scale up, then they will generate more employment.

Chan: Right.

Tse: And also for the grassroots because the handling of the recyclables, the collection, we create jobs for the grassroots. And actually that can help. Therefore many places, after the pandemic, people are talking about a green recovery because they believe a green transformation can help the economy to recover. 

Chan: Right.

Tse: I think that is also one side of the story.

Chan: But one quick question, about your recycling, under your leadership, are you going to provide more recycle points to pick up? Because looks like now there is only one in one district, for example, it is not very convenient. Will there be plans to increase?

Tse: Now we have 42 stations, as well as 170 mobile collection points all over the territory. And yes, the answer is yes. We will continue to expand the collection network because we believe that is a good way to encourage people to practice waste recycling.

Chan: Right. Secretary, one last question before the show ends: I am sure any successful policy needs good communication. Will you say that up until today, the communication between the government and the people, although it is of good intention, can it be improved? And how will you do it in the next 4 months? Short answer. What will a District Council do for example?

Tse: Definitely, we have to do it better, make it better; communication should be done in a better way. That is why we will arrange certain demonstrations for people to see how waste charging is going to put in practice. 

Chan: Right. Unfortunately, we have run out of time, Secretary. Thank you very much for taking all our questions on this on the real hot topic of charging for municipal solid waste. I trust that your bureau will take all the feedback you have received and work to deliver the best solution for Hong Kong residents. Environmental activist Greta Thornburg said, “Let us not be known as the generation that talked about rubbish, but as the one that took bold steps towards a cleaner and greener future.” Have a good evening and see you next week!