Straight Talk presenter Eugene Chan (left) interviews retired Hong Kong political veteran Maria Tam, who was also the former convener of the National People’s Congress Hong Kong delegation, on TVB, Jan 2, 2024. (PROVIDED TO CHINA DAILY)

Retired Hong Kong political veteran and former convener of the National People’s Congress Hong Kong delegation Maria Tam is on the show this week.

Tam tells us how Hong Kong can better prepare itself by integrating well with the Guangdong-Hong Kong-Macao Greater Bay Area and our country's long-term development, so that we can be both a Chinese city and an international business hub. Instead of focusing on fending off attacks by the Five Eyes, she says we should look to the rest of the world as well, just like the motherland has been doing.

Check out the full transcript of TVB’s Straight Talk host Dr Eugene Chan’s interview with Maria Tam:

Chan: Good evening! This is Straight Talk with Eugene Chan. Our guest this evening is someone who needs no introduction: Maria Tam. Tam is recognized as one of the most prominent figures in Hong Kong's community and political spheres. At one time, she was a member of all four different levels of representative councils – being at the Executive Council, Legislative Council, Urban Council and District Council. She has served on numerous government committees, both before and after Hong Kong’s return to the motherland. Of note, she was a member of the Hong Kong Basic Law Drafting Committee and became convener of the National People's Congress, Hong Kong's delegation. She was recognized by the British government as the Commander of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire, and awarded with the highest honor of a Hong Kong government, the Grand Bauhinia Medal. This evening we have invited her to talk to us about what the prospects are like for Hong Kong's long term development. Are there any real concerns? Welcome, Maria!

Tam: Thank you, Eugene! That was a long introduction. I'm your friend. That's the main thing.

Chan: Thank you very much for coming. I'm very pleased that we have you on the show today. I know you have retired from your active role in the political circle. 

Tam: Yes, I'm happily retired. 

Chan: But I'm sure people in Hong Kong will still miss your good comments a lot. You have played an integral role in the shaping of Hong Kong and seen Hong Kong through many ups and downs in the last few decades. At the moment, we seem to be facing more than our fair share of challenges … after the social unrest, then the pandemic ...

Tam: Yes.

Chan: … then the post-COVID economic and labor challenges and to top it off, geopolitical tensions. 

Tam: Yes.

Chan: All big terms I have used. So, what is your take on all these? And are there any real concerns for Hong Kong's long term development?

Tam: I think Hong Kong is a land of opportunities, but opportunities are always available only to those who are ready to take it and reap the benefits. As you see, China is opening up and hasn't slowed down whatsoever in spite of all the sanctions. The socialistic economy in the Chinese mainland has sprung from just primary industry, manufacturing and secondary industry and is now moving firmly and steadily into not only the third sector economy but also innovation and technology. It's got a complete supply chain, you know, from farming produce, raw material mines, all the way to sending astronauts up to the moon. So, what happened is that because of the socialist system, they were able to concentrate resources and attentions and energy into developing the framework that would make small industry farmers, ordinary people, raise themselves from poverty, and also education, medical services, everything improving a great deal, in the last 14 years, that I could see. At the same time, Hong Kong is still very strong as a financial center, as you know, for the next five years. In the 14th five-year plan, we are ordained to be the international shipping trading, cultural exchange center, IP, intellectual property right trading center, aviation hub, exchange center for culture west and east, and also the hub for Asia Pacific legal services and dispute resolution. At the same time, we have RCEP, we are already in WTO. We have the Belt and Road Initiative and at the same time, also, we have the GBA next to us. There's plenty of opportunities for those who are prepared to go and join all these adventures, which also would be part of the challenges we're facing. And at the end of the day, knowing how consistently the Chinese five-year plans have been producing results. And as long as Hong Kong can join and go along with it, and at the same time, it shows that our international connection is operating well. As you know, in the past, we are more familiar with dealing with the Five Eyes and now the Five Eyes are giving us hostile looks. So, we have to open up new areas for trade and finance and all the other three sectors, economic exchanges with the rest of the world. So, the BRI row initiative will be very helpful.

Chan: Right, Maria. I'm gonna say that this last five minutes of narrative actually has summed up what opportunities we have …

Tam: Yes

Chan: … because of the mainland's development, and the main point that you have said is, if Hong Kong people are prepared ...

Tam: Yes. 

Chan: … to take advantage of that, we have a good future. 

Tam: Yes, definitely.

Chan: Since you mentioned the Five Eyes, I mean, I'm sure viewers want to have great exchanges at Straight Talk. This is the reason we invite you to come here. I mean, I must quote the latest annual report, released by the US-China economic and security commission, threatening our central government to say that it is interfering with our affairs in Hong Kong. I know it is a report that you may not be familiar with, but how you respond to such a statement that actually some Hong Kong people, some friends have said to me they felt that the hands of the central government is being felt a lot, a lot more than before. How would you say that?

Tam: First of all, I think the credibility of the foreign media is waning, is dropping. Just look at the report they're doing on Gaza and there's a lot of … Okay, I shouldn't go into detail. But I think it's very well known around the world that they are not reporting faithfully or truly on what exactly is happening, the tragedy that is happening there.

Chan: But do you .... would you say that the Chinese hand is being felt a lot more than before? 

Tam: Okay, I know. I'm trying to explain to you first of all, the credibility of the Western media is not as effective as before. Secondly, when we talk about whether China is interfering in the affairs of Hong Kong because I was involved in the drafting of the Basic Law, I can tell you truly that everything is working according to the book. And when the Basic Law says we have to enact laws to protect national security, such as in Article 23, then it's our duty, not our right, our duty to do it. And in respect of our economic policies, we know very well we have to develop alongside the GBA, and unless we are able to merge to some extent into the economic, cultural, and social activities of the GBA, Hong Kong cannot survive on its own. It's a very small place with a reducing population and throughout the years we've been trying to say look, you know, our enterprises, our industries, it's sort of not diversified enough. We have only the third sector economy, but with the GBA and the sort of complete supply chain I was talking about we got everything, all we have to do is to be a super connector. So, it will help Hong Kong a great deal. That means we got a complete picture, everything that we need to develop the economy as far as the sort of, Western media or even Western politicians saying that they have to sanction judges or government officials in Hong Kong. I think it is out of their own voters, perhaps they would have to get votes for their re-election. Perhaps that's the best way to cover up what they are not able to do domestically to make their own people happier. So, as far as I'm concerned, so far, the smear campaign has been going on ever since 2019. Sanction has been going on, but we're still thriving, and China is still positive on its GDP and so is Hong Kong.

Chan: Right, Maria. Thank you for explaining that in great detail. But I mean, when you talk about the Western media or the Western rhetoric, the main campaign they're doing is right after the national security legislation has been enacted. And that's exactly what has helped Hong Kong to restore order. But all these smear campaigns, irrespective of what we're trying to tell them through our media, are still hurting our international standards and connections. So, how do you think our economy or businesses should overcome such attacks and what can we do? 

Tam: I think, first of all, this is something I've been thinking about. You know, we have a lot of external trade offices around the world. We have 14 – four in North America, four in Europe, five in Asia, and one in the Middle East. Just as I said, if the Five Eyes don't look at us favorably, so what? There's the rest of the world so we can go along the BRI; we can go to Middle East, Eastern Europe, Africa, South America, and that's what the mainland is doing. So, what Hong Kong should do is to follow where the mainland goes to do business or build infrastructures, we make sure that our service sectors get involved and be part of the team. And that is our future. 

Chan: Right, Maria before we go to the break, I'll ask you a quick question. Has Hong Kong been in such difficulty before? In your memory.

Tam: I think in the ’70s … in the ’60s and ’70s when they had the Cultural Revolution, the fear was much bigger. And during the joint negotiation, the negotiation on the joint declaration in the ’80s, 1982, 1984, there's been a flood of immigrants going from Hong Kong to the Five Eyes, for example. But every time we survive, we come back, we are stronger.

Chan: Right. Let's take a break now and viewers do stay with us. We will be right back.

Retired Hong Kong political veteran Maria Tam attends the Straight Talk show on TVB, Jan 2, 2024. (PROVIDED TO CHINA DAILY)

Chan: Thank you for staying with us. We have Maria Tam on the show this evening, and she has been talking to us about Hong Kong’s long-term development prospects. So, Maria, in the first half, I always remember what you said in the first bit saying that it is for the people who are prepared, then we will be able to fight these uphill challenges. And also you said that Hong Kong people should look for other opportunities, not just the Five Eyes because there are many markets waiting for us. So, to do that, we must know our strengths and weaknesses. And as you know, rule of law is something that I am sure you are going to talk about. Before you go on, in Hong Kong we have this premium position of having the ‘one country, two systems’, do you think Hong Kong has taken full advantage of this? This is my first question for you.

Tam: Taking advantage of ‘one country, two systems’, the answer is no. What happens is, in my view, ever since the reunification, we have kind of stuck to the idea that the original capitalist system has no flaw, which is okay because when we wrote the Basic Law, Article 5 says: Hong Kong will practice capitalistic systems and lifestyle. We didn't say Hong Kong will have to practice policy that is so laissez-faire to fit into a capitalistic system because every capitalistic country has got its own way of doing it. So, one of the things that I think the present government, the Lee administration, has done very well is that Paul Chan came out and say we are not going to practice laissez-faire. The government is coming in. Firstly I hope and I think they are doing it to unleash the private sectors’ power to work with government policy. This comes to housing, employment, immigration, and other things. And the other thing that I think the Lee administration is doing well is that it has got no vested interest. So, if they need to talk to trade union and say we have to import labor, we have to import talent, they talk to the doctors and say we need more doctors, which can help to change the landscape of our medical services; or they talk to the big property investment companies or developers and say look, you know we are doing public housing, you have to join in as well. He was doing it and it is in the policy speech, which is something I find gratifying to see. And the Lee administration, I think, is purpose-driven. When they see, for example, there is problem in the districts, maybe it is hygiene problem, maybe it is the OH service, maybe schools that have been left vacant and not being properly used, you can see from the Policy Address, he (John Lee) is looking at it and he is proposing answers. It will take time for all these to bear fruit. And as far as what I was saying about not having to rely on the Five Eyes concern, he's gone to the Middle East, he’s gone all around Southeast Asia, and I think Paul Chan also led a group, and even political parties go and visit these places. So, I think we've changed our paradigm.

Chan: Right. So, Maria, what you are saying is that we hadn’t taken full advantage of ‘one country, two systems’ before.

Tam: Yes.

Chan: But now looks like the new administration, maybe things have to have no choice, but this is the only way out. Looks like we are doing the right thing, at least from your view. So, before … there is another view I am sure the viewers are going to ask you – so far you have told them about the Western rhetoric, why they are trying to smear us, and how we can tackle it. Another thing you often hear is saying that, the report that I just mentioned earlier, they are saying that it has transformed Hong Kong from an international city into another Chinese city. I mean are the two characteristics mutually exclusive? Is there anything wrong of being a Chinese city? It looks like being a Chinese city is wrong, you have to be an international city. So, how would you answer that?

Tam: Well, I think a very clear distinction is that we practice Common Law here, and we have 11 imminent judges from other Common Law jurisdictions on our bench. And at least 6 of them have come out and say they believe there is judicial independence in the Court of Final Appeal, and they are happy to stay. In terms of ‘rule of law’, I think we rank 23rd amongst 142 (countries), the US is 26th. For ‘absence of corruption’, we rank number 9 globally. And for ‘rule and order’, we rank number 6 globally. We are the freest economy for trade. So, there are lots of things going for us, and we have 6 universities which are among the top 100. And 4 in the top 20, I think in Asia. So, as far as I can see, these are all the factors that will lead us to making use of the development of China, and giving assurance to investors from abroad, not only from the Five Eyes. 

Chan: Right. So, can I deduce what you have said that Hong Kong should be proud to be a Chinese city and also being international city as well? We are a Chinese city and an international city. If you ask me, to put in a capsule, we should have Chinese value, but world or Western skills. 

Tam: Chinese value is no man is an island. You know, it's a traditional Chinese value that the family is very important, and you love your country, and you have to protect your country. I mean the other two, the last two is universal. And then Western skills that you have to improve on your language skills, and not only English, you have to understand what's happening to the rest of the world, their culture, their politics, their economic strong points, their needs, and to be able to communicate with them. So, that is Hong Kong.

Chan: Right. Maria, you also mentioned the word GBA. This is often mentioned in the show. But I am sure the viewers would tell you, we all agree the concept of the GBA right next to us. With 80 million population, how can you not go over there? But now we are losing actually our economy to Shenzhen right at the moment because it looks like apparently they are doing better in terms of service or more cost value for money. So, how shall we face this GBA opportunities? I mean are we going to face with downturn first because of the GBA right next door?

Tam: I cannot imagine someone born in San Francisco who says I will never work in New York. He may get married in New York and stay there. So, Hong Kong should not look at itself as the territory south of the Shenzhen river. We are part of China, we should go in there and we should let them come to Hong Kong. I think there is going to be a change in population profile, with a skilled, maybe, value added industries coming to Hong Kong. And Hong Kong’s old folks may be going into China. This is going to happen, there is going to be a domestic circle of talents exchanging between Hong Kong and GBA. And an external circle of talents coming from abroad into Hong Kong, and then into the mainland.

Chan: Right. And you know we also have lost up to a minimum of like 200,000 people that have left Hong Kong, and as you said, there may be new immigrants coming in, the government is doing a very good job in drawing talents. Do you see this as an opportunity or do you see any cultural friction when you have more people coming to a place? I mean I heard there were over 150,000 people coming in. It is no small number. Will that cause a friction within the community?

Tam: Well, I think that depends on how we treat them. 

Chan: Right. 

Straight Talk presenter Eugene Chan (left) interviews Maria Tam, who was also the former convener of the National People’s Congress Hong Kong delegation, on TVB, Jan 2, 2024. (PROVIDED TO CHINA DAILY)

Tam: If you look at the definition of permanent right of abode, residents in Hong Kong, it doesn't say that you have to be born here and you are the only type. As long as you are here in Hong Kong, enter legally, and stay 7 years, then you can become a permanent resident. So, if you are a permanent resident of Hong Kong, then you will abide by Hong Kong laws. There is an ‘East meets West’ culture here, or there may be a ‘Mainland meets Hong Kong’ culture here. I see a lot of intermarriages and it works. So, I think if you stop thinking that we are just south of Shenzhen River, and you realize that such a vast expense of land and opportunity just north of it, then I think that there should be enough young people with courage and skills to survive the challenge. 

Chan: Right. We have got time for 2 more questions for you. At the recent Fight Crime Conference, the chief executive reiterated the need for the enactment of Article 23 of Basic Law. And we said earlier the Western media, we shouldn't be trusting all the time, we should look at it with a very critical point of view, that they often put sort of a negative spin on this. So, this is going to happen, I mean it has been said by Chris Tang as well. So, how can we make sure when this should be done, while the international confidence to the city is also there?

Tam: Now international confidence, you are talking about the Five Eyes, or just the whole world?

Chan: The whole world.

Tam: As far as the whole world is concerned, I think we are reaching out. So, that takes a bit of time. As far as the Five Eyes is concerned, even if you never enact any NSL, if it is to their interest, they will attack you, they’ll smear you, they’ll sanction you.

Chan: Right.

Tam: So, it doesn’t mean that we don’t worry about it. It is a concern. So, we have to improve on our communication skills and channels. And at the same time, the world rankings are very important. And at the same time, we just open our doors, let people come in and look at the truth. 

Chan: Right. Maria, I am afraid that is all the time we have. Thank you, Maria, for your perspective on Hong Kong's long-term development prospects. Viewers, I would like to pay a tribute to Maria Tam, whose dedication and contributions over the last 40 odd years has helped shape Hong Kong's history and chart our future.

Tam: Thank you, Eugene.

Chan: We too can play our part by embodying the Lion Rock spirit to ensure a bright future for our home, Hong Kong. As the song we all know says, “Never give up, and create miracles from the impossible.” Have a good evening and see you next week. Thank you!