Straight Talk presenter Eugene Chan (left) interviews Stephen Wong, the head of the Chief Executive's Policy Unit, on TVB, June 13, 2023. (PROVIDED TO CHINA DAILY)
The head of the newly formed Chief Executive's Policy Unit, Stephen Wong, is on the show to give us a detailed rundown as to why it's important to form the unit.
Check out the full transcript of TVB’s Straight Talk host Dr Eugene Chan’s interview with Chris Tang.
Chan: Good evening! Thank you for joining us on Straight Talk. Our guest is Dr Stephen Wong Yuen Shan, head of the Chief Executive’s Policy Unit, or CEPU. Dr Wong is a policy researcher and was the senior vice president of our Hong Kong Foundation, and also the executive director of the Public Policy Institute. He was a member of the Legislative Council until he resigned following his appointment to head of the CEPU. Stephen is with us tonight to share with us about the importance of policy research to the Hong Kong SAR government, and how it informs our chief executive’s decision. Before we start, I must disclose that I have been recently appointed as a member of the CEPU expert group. But I would like to reassure our viewers that I will do my best to be objective. And we will strive to ask questions that are informative and relevant to our viewers. So, welcome, Stephen!
Wong: Thank you.
Chan: When you were at our show last, you were the executive director of our Hong Kong Foundation. And you were also the deputy director in the chief executive campaign team. And you're involved in helping to do the chief executive election manifesto. So, some 11 months later, now you're the head of the CEPU. And of course, we'll talk about that later. But obviously, you have been recruited because of your skills, expertise as financial and economic analysis, and particularly your experience in policy research. But for most viewers, when you talk about research and all that it is very academic, and it's not really relevant to daily lives, as our title suggests, demystifying Policy Research, why do we need it? Maybe you can tell our viewers, why do we need it?
Wong: Well, we'd like to quote President Xi’s comments, if I may.
Chan: Sure.
Wong: That recently in the mainland, they actually have this campaign of in-depth research and studies. Because as President Xi said, no investigation and research work, no right to speak, no investigation, research work, no way to make decision. So, therefore, I think, from the central government’s perspective, research and studies are important for general policy direction, and specifically for CEPU, I remember that CE, when he set up this CEPU as CE’s internal research unit, basically, we are all researchers for CE. And so, he gave us four mandates. One is to do research, that is of strategic importance, as well as forward looking. And second, is to have policies that think more about national integration of Hong Kong into the overall mainland development. And number three, to analyse the international situations and the competitive strengths and weaknesses and challenges accordingly. And lastly to get a pulse of the public opinions and sentiments. So, these are the sort of the four research scope of our job as the internal research unit for the CE.
Chan: Alright, Stephen, you just outlined the four objectives of the CEPU. And I mean, as you said, President Xi said that we must have a research backing to make up the decisions. So, will you say that in the past the Hong Kong government, do you think we have any policy research supporting our decisions or are you implying that in the past, the research wasn't as adequate as we thought it can be?
Wong: In a way when we talked about strategic and forward-looking research, you will appreciate that any driver when they drive to a destination they have to look at a map first, when you are doing a show you will have to think about the positioning of the show and you know who are you going to invite. In a way when a corporate corporation running a business they will think about the strategic goals and envision as to where they want to go. So, I think similarly, I think from CE perspective? You know, he's probably thinking also similar fashion as you, okay, what sort of policy researched support we can give him so that when he makes that strategic decision, there are more sort of research bases. And that's number one. Number two is that there are, in fact, division of labor between the policy bureaus and ourselves as the internal research unit for CE, we obviously research in accordance to his policy priorities and objectives. And individual bureaus already, obviously, as you would be fully aware that when they actually do their day-to-day work, they obviously need to incorporate policy research within their relevant areas. And also, they have to understand the policy sentiments, the public sentiments for that particular policy as well as they have to do the lobbying, legislative work. So, they have a lot of sort of administrative work, as they actually push ahead with the policy, including research. But I think therefore, the division of labor is quite clear. One is for, you know, strategic importance for the research work for CE and then sort of the respective policy bureau that have their own policy priority, their research work.
Chan: I think it's very pleasing to know that our chief executive wants to make an informed decision with good policy backup, so that the chances of success will be much higher and much more predictable. And as you rightly said, the CEPU will be a group of researchers. And inevitably you have to work with the Bureau direction as well. But both of you have different mandates; one is narrower, one is broader in perspective. So, how can you assure that all the research outcome will be objective and unbiased? And of course, not influenced by political interests? Because very often, as you know, any research can always be dependent on the rationale behind sometimes it can be not as unbiased as you would like it to be, how can you assure that?
Wong: One thing about our research is that, as a researcher, our training is that we have defined methodologies to find our different opinions, to actually consolidate and integrate into a narrative and framework for ultimate decision maker, which is in this case, CE to decide on his own, you know, decision. So, research in a way is to provide the data, the platform, the framework, the analysis, for the ultimate decision maker, in this case, CE. So, therefore, I think the research work is pretty, pretty defined and pretty clear. And, again, the Bureau's for the respective policy and the relevant research work. And we, I think, in a way are one team, under the CE’s leadership, for you know, each of us are playing our own part, being the internal research unit. And hopefully, by playing, you know, each part in a good way, therefore, as a team, we can deliver good results for the citizens.
Chan: Right, Stephen another area, I must ask you is the role of think-tanks. We all have think-tanks in the community, you were at a think-tank. So, what role do they have now you have internal researchers, now you have the bureau itself, what role will they play? And do you need think-tanks to support the government?
Wong: Absolutely, I think … as an internal research unit, I would like to call ourselves a think-tank of think-tanks. Meaning that I was in finance before we have this concept of fund of funds. So, we are basically, a think-tank of think-tanks means that we are a think-tank, but we are not doing all the research by ourselves. But also we are trying to have this mechanism, so that we can absorb and translate and consolidate all the good research that are out there in the society. That is whether it's from research institutes, whether it's from think-tanks, or whether it's from universities. So, in a way we set up this you know, system or mechanism, so that we can get these research and the expert group is as part of that as well as … yes.
Chan: Right. So, even though it's the … I'm gonna ask you a more direct question. I mean, in the past people have been away off the cuff and working is that Mr Tung, our former chief executive, he had the Council of International Advisors and the central policy unit. Same as our former CE Mr Donald Tsang, CY Leung. They always have the central policy unit. Mrs Carrie Lam had the PCO, the Policy and Coordination Office. So, every CEO has their own style of running Hong Kong. So, CEPU is essentially the same as before, it just happened to have a different name, or is playing a completely different role?
Wong: I think our role is very clear, is the internal research unit for the CE, to work under that four research scope that we described in the very beginning, including strategic and forward-looking research and nationally, integration into the international development as well as international analysis and the public polling. So, I think our job definition is very clear. And hopefully, as I said, together with bureaus doing their own parts, which, for some of that, including part of the research as well, we can play as a team to deliver good results.
Chan: I mean in the CE’s policy address, he said that enhancing governance capability is actually a priority. And the CEPU has been established to enhance that. So, when you talk about long term and strategic issues, how can you? Can you break down for us what you mean by that?
Wong: Sure. I think one of the good examples is to think of it as … I use the example of the integration of national development. Under that, right, we just have the 20th plenary sessions and that talks about the … For example, the high-quality growth, right, so which is also the topic of our next coming expert group meeting. When we talk about the high-quality growth, for which is the national priority, and what is that relevance to Hong Kong, and how Hong Kong can first contribute, and also align ourselves to this high-quality growth. From the economic social perspective, I think there are a lot of things to be discussed. And these are pretty strategic topics as well.
Chan: Stephen, let's take a break now. But viewers, we will be right back.
The head of the Chief Executive's Policy Unit, Stephen Wong, attends the Straight Talk show on TVB, June 13, 2023. (PROVIDED TO CHINA DAILY)
Chan: Thank you for staying with us. We have been talking with Dr Stephen Wong, the head of the CEPU, about the importance of policy research to the government, and the role of the CEPU. So, Stephen, in the first half, you have listed reasons why we have the CEPU, and then the Chief Executive has high hopes into your unit, and to work together with other bureaus, so that we have a good and informative decisions, so that Hong Kong can move forward. And on your appointment, the CE mentioned specifically that the close collaboration and communication that you have engaged with top think-tanks in the mainland, and that you are familiar with national development, are one of the main reasons why you are tasked with head of this group. We all know that Hong Kong has to be integrating with the mainland in the 14th five-year plan for Hong Kong’s benefit, as well as for the mainland’s interest as well. So, why do we still need research? Why can't we just follow the plans and just do it?
Wong: When we talk about research, it is not about just trying to write a paper, because I think the process of research is to facilitate understanding. For example, you mentioned the mainland think-tanks, or even … mainland think-tanks, they have different levels. One is in the society, and some think-tanks are closely related to the government as well. So, through the dialogue and communication, what we call the research, it is really to facilitate a lot of communication and understanding. And so that I think, you know, in order to actually work together and have this national integration of development, then I think the first thing is to understand their priorities, understand the … even though the wordings might be a little bit different, in terms of bureaucratic writings, they have their own styles …
Chan: So, we can anticipate more cooperation between Hong Kong and mainland think-tanks, and even the government?
Wong: Yes. I think to give you an example, before I joined the government, even when I was in a think-tank myself, I worked with two mainland think-tanks in a joint project into a biotech development, for example, in the loop. So, these are pretty specific topics that only by actually talking to each other, because you do need to have Hong Kong input, as “ok what Hong Kong can bring into the table”, you need the mainland as to, “okay so what are the policy lever that you can potentially pour in” hopefully, or lobby in from a central government perspective. And lastly, the local think-tank to work with is in Shenzhen. So, they have actually the local knowledge of Shenzhen. So, between Hong Kong, Shenzhen, or even the central … in Beijing, for example, I think that was a project that I was, when I was in think-tank, actually I thought it was very beneficial. So, I look forward to similar sort of communications.
Chan: Yes, right. Stephen, having worked in a think-tank before, you are an analyst in all the…financial analyst, you were a legislative, now you are head of CEPU. I think you are the best person to answer me this question because a lot has happened over the last few years. You had the riots, you had the COVID, you had the imposition … the national security legislation in Hong Kong, and also increasing geopolitical tension. I mean that has put a lot of stress on Hong Kong as an international city under ‘one country, two systems’. Do you think Hong Kong’s role has needed to be redefined, from your perspective?
Wong: I think this is, first of all, a great research topic. And as an internal researcher, we certainly will carry on research that would be prioritised by the CE. And when we were given a research task, we certainly get expert opinion from our fellow experts, like yourself, so that we would consolidate and align our thinking to propose a research materials for our leader to consider. So, I think that is a process, we usually work on any topics.
Chan: Right, but do you think we will have … do you think we need to be redefined in that role?
Wong: As I said, you know, one thing that I should highlight here as well is that as an internal research unit, not only we are low profile, not only what we work on are confidential, we also … because I think that is advantageous in a way because that gives us some room to think outside the box, so that we can be aggressively getting full set of opinions, as diverse as in Hong Kong. And then we can actually have room to actually consolidate and align, and give a vague framework for the boss, for the CE to consider.
Chan: Fully understand.
Wong: So, I think that is the nature of our work, and so we work very closely with our experts, which is really our research collaborator. But obviously, you know, we respect their expert personal opinions, but on the other hand we will, you know, trying to get in the research input as well.
Chan: So, Stephen, another role that the CEPU has been tasked is to feel the pulse of the society, and look for factors that are conducive to social harmony and stability. How are you going to push that? And how can you measure whether we are successful?
Wong: Well, when we actually have … first of all, our also polling has sort of different division of labour between, for example, a topic specific that is proposed by the Bureau, they will obviously do their own sort of public polling. Our polling is generally general and longitudinal in nature, so that we can track certain polling and findings for CE’s considerations. So these are, in terms of polling methodology, it is really well-established. So we are trying to only do the survey, telephone polling, focus group, stakeholder interviews, and expert advice, I think sort of…or obviously social media, social listening, there are a lot of tools out there. We try to engage as best as can, for the tools that we can utilize.
Chan: Right. Stephen, the CEPU, the Chief Executive Policy Unit, was established on the 27th of December, and then on March 17, you have the account of advisors up to 34 members were appointed. And recently, on May 30, there are a group of 56 members, where I had declared, I was one of them. And you have three groups, the economic advancement, and also talk about social development, as well as research and strategic things. So, how do you expect these three groups going to help you to actually do the actual study, and be able to give our CE a very informative, down-to-earth sort of advice?
Wong: Enormously. Let me just explain, first of all, the CE advisory council, which is the 30+ numbers of advisors that was held in a meeting in March, as you said. Those are advisors to CE himself, and CEPU is the secretariat to basically take down the minutes and follow up on actions as required by CE, as a result of those meetings. We follow up with that actively. And what we have is the CEPU expert group, because expert group is basically the research collaborator with us. And our final goal is to have a research product, an internal research product for CE’s consumption. So, I think the … our relationship with the expert group is very well defined because what we are trying to get is either we actively source their research advice on a regular research project that we are working on, as mandated by CE. Or we are receiving the research product that some of these expert members, actually a lot of these expert members, are full-time researchers themselves, whether it is in universities or in think-tanks, so their full time job is a researcher. And therefore, they would have research product anyway, so what we are trying to do is to make sure that not only we have this regular research that we asked them, but the communication is both ways. So, that when they have their own research product, as to their own agenda, we will receive it and we will learn from it because frankly as a research unit, we are a learning organization. So, we try to observe and learn from all our important stakeholders and expert group is our research important stakeholders.
Chan: Right. So, certainly what you are saying is a lot of researchers, we are going to have a definite direct channel to the government. Maybe in the past, they have done the research, but then they don't have to this sort of channel to be able to communicate directly with yourself and directly to the CE. So, if there is a young person who wants to be a policy researcher now, looks like Hong Kong definitely has sort of a kind of a ladder to move into actual government governance. Do you agree? And what qualities are you looking at such researchers?
Wong: Yeah, that is a great question. We recently have done an open recruiting, and the response has been very good. And as a researcher, obviously we are looking for research skill set that is academically strong, that is passionate for the society that is thinking of ways to constructively and positively can help the society through policy implementation. So, I think these are sort of general, but I am very glad when I am seeing you know the general pool that is applying to the job. And I think the think-tank ecosystem is generally improving, at least I wasn't thinking about being a think-tank person when I first graduated many years ago. But I stumbled into it, and I think this is a very rewarding, in terms of being able to actually carry out a policy research. I think it is just a very, very good career.
Chan: Right. Stephen, I am afraid that is all the time we have. And thank you for outlining how important policy research is to the government decision making. We look forward to the CEPU suggestions, including those gathered from the greater community, which will be the potion for Hong Kong’s success. Have a great evening and see you next week.
