The chief executive officer of the West Kowloon Cultural District Authority (WKCDA), Betty Fung Ching Suk-yee, is on the show this week.

She talks about how Hong Kong is actually among the top art trading markets next to London and New York, and how the running cost recovery rate is also among the best museums in the world, comparable or even better than the Museum of Modern Art, New York, and the MET.

Check out the full transcript of TVB’s Straight Talk host Dr Eugene Chan’s interview with Betty Fung:

Chan: Good evening. I'm Eugene Chan, on Straight Talk. Our guest is the CEO of the West Kowloon Cultural District Authority, Betty Fung. Fung has been with the government service since 1986. Having held key roles, including directors of the Information Services Department and Leisure and Cultural Services Department, the permanent secretary for Home Affairs, and head of the Policy Innovation and Coordination Office. Taking over the West Kowloon District Cultural Service Authority at a challenging time in 2020, she has since shepherded it through the launch of two mega projects – the M+ and the Hong Kong Palace Museum – and honored with France’s National Medal for fostering culture exchange and Hong Kong's Gold Bauhinia Star medal. She now steers the West Kowloon Cultural project through its next critical phase. Welcome, Betty!

Fung: Hi, Eugene.

Chan: Thank you for coming to the show. I have been trying to invite you and, finally, we have you on the show. I'm very happy today.

Fung: Thank you for the opportunity.  

Chan: You know, for the West Kowloon Cultural District, which is very familiar to a lot of Hong Kong people, maybe you can start just by giving a bird's eye view of what comprises the so-called hardware of the West Kowloon Cultural District.

Fung: Okay, thank you, Eugene. Well, the West Kowloon Cultural District is, of course, situated on the 40-hectare site, reclaimed plan, and on the site, we can build up to 851,000 square meter GFA, of which about 40 percent, 337,000 square meters, has to be arts and cultural facilities. We are now completing batch one and batch two of all our arts and culture facilities. Some of them have already been opened, like the M+ Museum, Hong Kong Palace Museum, Xiqu Center and the Freespace, and, of course, a very popular Arts Park. And we are now building the WestK Performing Arts Centre, which will be completed next year. We still have a number of facilities to be developed, but that will take a bit of time. And at the back of our arts and culture facilities, we also have commercial facilities like retail, dining, entertainment, hotel, office, and residential, and we will be developing them in phases.

Chan: So, Betty, I told the viewers earlier that you came to West Kowloon in 2020 at a sort of quite a challenging time. And how would you evaluate the whole district's achievement in terms of promoting Hong Kong as an “East-meets-West center for international cultural exchange” and any sort of memorable events you'd like to share with us?

Fung: I think you said very rightly that it was a very challenging time in 2020 to 2022. We were faced with the COVID pandemic’s successive waves. And I remember when M+ opened in November 2021, we had to close it after one and a half months because of the fifth wave of the pandemic. And after a few months, we had to open the Hong Kong Palace Museum. So, both of them are open during the pandemic. At that time, we were faced with the decision of whether we should open it or we shouldn't and wait for until the pandemic was over. But we took the bold decision of opening two major infrastructures for West K and I think the decision taken then was very right because when the pandemic was over in early 2023 we were able to receive visitors from all over the world. And now about 60 percent to 70 percent of our visitors are coming from the Chinese mainland and overseas countries. So, we can see now it's become a very popular must-see cultural tourism destination for Hong Kong. So, I celebrated those successes with my colleagues. It's not easy, but we have risen over the challenges.

Chan: Since you mentioned that a lot of tourists will come and visit West Kowloon ... I'm sure, with the viewers, if you have relatives or friends from overseas, we definitely, definitely say, let's go and have a look at the museum. But someone told me, actually, the director of the show said to me, the producer, he said that he found a lot of the tourists who came mainly just to take a picture, say, of the Palace Museum, say because of its nice architecture, but without going inside. Have you thought of how to lure them to go further and take advantage of the exhibits inside?

Fung: Well, of course, we have about 15 million people coming in, coming to West Kowloon last year, 2024, and about, I think one one-third of them will go to the museum and also attend the performing arts programs, whether they are free or paid. For the remaining two-thirds, they come, some of them, of course, are Hong Kong citizens. They enjoy the park, and they bring their pets, and also their families. That is also very welcomed by the WKCDA. But of course, as you said, we want more of them, really pay the tickets, buy the tickets and go to see the exhibitions. They are marvelous exhibitions, like what we are doing now, the Picasso conversation with Asia, and at the end of the year we will have Egypt, an Asian-Egypt exhibition. These are treasures and not to mention the Palace Museum treasures. So, promotion is very important, and having very attractive packages for tourists is also very important. That's why we are discussing with the tourism sector as to how we can package our programs. Apart from watching, and seeing the exhibition, they will have a more holistic experience of retail, dining, and also attending different sorts of programs within the district. So, these are the things that I think we have to step up. And we are stepping up in 2025.

Chan: Right, Betty. Since you're saying that it's for attractive packages, maybe you can tell the viewers how attractive, or actually, how much the tickets are. Say, for example, you want to have a year-long pass and want to come and visit them over and over again. How much would it be?

Fung: Well, actually, the memberships, we call the annual tickets or membership, are very, very affordable, HK$600 for one museum. Also, we have tickets for both museums, co-branding. For elderly citizens, 60 and above, and also students HK$300, very affordable.

Chan: It's very, very affordable.

Fung: ... and that's why we are trying not to just promote them to Hong Kong citizens. And because of Shenzhen citizens, they can come multiple times a year. We are now trying to promote our annual pass to the (Guangdong-Hong Kong-Macao) Greater Bay Area as well. And this is a very big potential for us in the Greater Bay Area.

Chan: Since you mentioned about the Greater Bay Area, I mean, what type of so-called competitions do we have for Hong Kong, the two museums, compared to others in the GBA?

Fung: Well, of course, many of the museums in the mainland are free of charge …

Chan: I see.

Fung: … unlike the public museums in Hong Kong. So, our challenge is to really encourage those visitors to buy tickets, even though I said our tickets are very affordable like the Hong Kong Palace Museum is only HK$70 for a general mission.

Chan: Extremely affordable.

Fung: Yes, very affordable. But then you have to tell them it is a value for money. You pay HK$70, you come to see the national treasures of the Palace Museum, not just those that you can see in Beijing, but some of them have never been shown in Beijing or even outside the mainland. So, these are the things that we have to tell them more if you want to see the best of Picasso that is in Hong Kong, right now we are doing the Picasso exhibition. So, these are things that you can only see in M+ and Hong Kong Palace Museum.

Chan: Right, Betty, since we are tasked by our mainland to be sort of an international cultural exchange center, I'm sure, with your going-global strategy, that you visit different places, you will bring in more exhibitions. I'm sure this is even, even more valuable that may not be available in the GBA. I saw that you've also been to New York and also been to the actual Middle East. Can you share with us what you have seen and what will you be able to bring back to Hong Kong, that is, to say, a very rare experience for people?

Fung: Yes, we adopt what we call the “bringing-in, going-global” strategy. Bringing in means, as we just mentioned, we bring the best quality, most diversified program exhibitions to Hong Kong. That's why we collaborated with the Picasso Museum, the Tate, the MoMA, to bring the best exhibits to Hong Kong. But at the same time, we are also promoting our collection, our exhibitions to them. One very successful example is the “Yaoi Kuzama 1945 to now”. It has been on tour to Guggenheim, Bilbao in Spain, and also to Porto in Portugal, attracting over 1.65 million visitors around the world, breaking Hong Kong's record. So, selling our program, selling our original IP to these countries, is also one of the objectives. But to look for more in-depth and broad collaboration, we are not just talking about exhibitions or loans. We are talking about professional exchange. I'm talking about how to export our expertise, our services and the experience that we have gathered in the past five years in running a cultural district to these places like the Middle East, you're talking about building cultural districts, and they are at the very starting stage. So, they would also like to leverage all our expertise in helping them to really jump-start the development of cultural districts.

Chan: Right Betty, when you’re overseas, I want to just ask you, because, I mean, we had Bernard Chan, who is one of our good friends, he's had to be when he’s meeting the people in the Western culture, they really ... the M+ Museum is a very famous place for them. So, does Hong Kong have a very good standing amongst them internationally?

Fung: Well, of course, West Kowloon Cultural District has a very diversified program, and we always say, from traditional to contemporary, performing arts to visual arts. M+, as I would say, after three years of opening, in terms of visitation, it’s already the 21st most visited museum in the world and the third most visited in Asia. But it's not just the visitation that is standing and status, because M+ is a contemporary visual art culture museum. It covers not just visual arts, but design and architecture and moving images. And amongst all the Asian museums, this is a very unique positioning. And even, museums like MoMA, the Museum of Modern Art in New York, which is 100 years old, are willing to sign an MOU with M+. So, you can see that they really value M+'s expertise, the curatorial standard and the collection as well. So, I think it really enjoys a very high standing internationally.

Chan: Right, Betty, maybe we will go for a break now and don’t go anywhere, we won't be long.

Chan: You are watching Straight Talk with Eugene Chan, and we are back with Betty Fung to talk more about the challenges and future plans of the West Kowloon Cultural District development. So, Betty, in the first half, you told us your going global strategy is great value for money, from my point, that we have got such wonderful exhibits. And Hong Kong indeed is very lucky or fortunate to have such exposure to the rest of the world. And Hong Kong does have a very good standing. With all that in mind, how is that going to promote, to create, what we call, a comprehensive arts trading ecosystem over the years? Has that been developed?

Fung: Well, this is one of the four major directions set out in the 2024 Policy Address by the chief executive, and we fully embrace these four directions. And one of these four directions is to help Hong Kong to develop a comprehensive art trading ecosystem. Hong Kong has already been very successful in arts trading, in terms of the art fair, the Art Basel, and Art Central. We have already become one of the three largest arts trading centers in the world, with London and New York. But like London and New York, you need a whole supply chain. We call the industry supply chain or the ecosystem to support art fairs or arts trading. And I would describe them as like you have to have the upstream like you have to create artwork, so that is why you have to nurture your artists. You have to have more people who love art, building an art lover community. And also you have to have space for artists and residents, and also valuation, etc. And in the midstream, it is more like the art fair, art trading, auction houses, galleries, and also logistics, you handle the art after you buy them. And in the downstream, it is more like you conserve them. Once you buy an artwork, you have to really take good care of them, you have to conserve them, you have to store them. And from time to time, you may want to exhibit them. So, these are the upstream, midstream, and downstream work. So, in West Kowloon, we are aiming to create that ecosystem. And we will provide space because as I mentioned in the first part, we have office space up to 366,000 square meters of hotel office and residential space. So, in one or two years' time, we will have our Artist Square Towers, with about 65,000 square meters of office space. So, this is a very good potential to attract the industry supply chain to come to West Kowloon. We already have museums, we already have Philips as one of the major auction houses in the world. And, of course, we have learning institutes. All these are important components of building the art trading ecosystem. And I am very confident that the West Kowloon Cultural District is very attractive to these enterprises.

Chan: Right. With all those developments right there, how has that affected our local development in the local culture and also the creative industry? Have you seen more local artists or even a more vibrant sort of a local scene? Have you seen that in the last few years?

Fung: Exactly. As you know, I have been the director of Leisure and Cultural Services for five years since 2009.

Chan: Yes.

Fung: And then the permanent secretary. I have seen that actually the whole landscape of Hong Kong has undergone a transformation, or sometimes I would even use the word “paradigm shift”. From people used to calling Hong Kong a cultural desert with no cultural offering, to now, nobody would use that term to describe Hong Kong. Hong Kong is now a very vibrant cultural scene, thanks to Art Basel, Art Central, and these sort of art fairs. But also, we have to promote and also groom our own artists. Unlike New York and London, for art fair, they sell the majority of the works of their local artists, like New York artists. But Hong Kong is still a little bit far from that, we have to really nurture more artists. But I am very happy to say that our artists are nowadays, many of them are selling quite well in the art fair. So, I see that we have lots of potential. And one point I also want to make is that the parents nowadays are very supportive. Even if their children want to become artists, either performing artists or visual artists, they are now more supportive than before like when we were young, right?

Chan: I am sure. So, in how many more years do you think Hong Kong will be even more vibrant in terms of the whole scene? That Hong Kong will be a real sort of trading place where a lot of arts are happening here? Do you see that happening one day?

Fung: I am very optimistic. Of course, West Kowloon plays a major role because we have the space, we have the location, we have the destination, we attract people. But the whole of Hong Kong is also doing a lot of things. The government is promoting arts and culture. And we have also other venues, like Kai Tak is also doing sports and concerts. It is also some sort of entertainment pop culture. And also Tai Kwun, and also other places. So with these concerted efforts, Hong Kong really stands a very good chance to become a major international arts centre, or even an international cultural hub. As compared to London and New York, we will not be even at a lesser standard than that.

Chan: Betty, I must also congratulate you in running the district so well because I have been invited to, more than once, to very nice concerts, and even activities in the West Kowloon area. It is very pleasing to look at Hong Kong from that. It is very, I mean, it is sort of less congested. So, I think I want to encourage people to go and visit, and of course the museums.

Fung: Yes.

Chan: So, with all those nice things, I want to talk about the challenges.

Fung: Okay.

Chan: I am sure the viewers have been wanting me to ask you: “Hey, we have been listening to the news that they are facing a lot of financial difficulties”. So, before you go on, can you tell the viewers, was this expected or what was the cause of it? Was it overspending? Or was it unexpected due to the income? Why did it go wrong? I am sure when they first started the planning, I am sure they did not plan for a deficit. Did they?

Fung: Yeah. As you know, the West Kowloon Cultural District Authority was given HK$21.6 billion in 2008. That was 16, 17 years ago. And at that time, when we do the financial model, perhaps the construction cost wasn't so high in 2008. That is why some of the cost has gone beyond what was originally planned. But then the government recognized that, so that is why they asked us to defer the construction of the third batch of our arts and cultural facilities. But the mismatch of income and expenditure is one of the reasons.

Originally, the model is that you have the commercial income to support the arts and cultural facilities, which we all know will not be fully cost recovery. We are already doing very well as compared to the international museums. To quote you an example, the best-performing museums in the world is some US New York-based museums like MoMA and MET, their cost recovery rate is about 50 percent. And Hong Kong Palace Museum and M+ are doing 45 percent to 60 percent, and sometimes over 60 percent. It is not bad at all. But then you can't have 100 percent cost recovery. That means the authority still have to subsidize about half of the running cost. The facilities management, the staff cost, the air conditioning, the utilities – these all have to be subsidized. So, in the long run, when we have all the commercial portfolios completed, we don't have to worry about financial sustainability. It is just in the interim period when this commercial portfolio is not in place. So, how do we bridge this funding gap? The government's approval for the relaxation of the enhanced financial arrangement, which allows us to sell some of the portfolios as residential, is helpful, but we are not selling immediately, partly because we have to go through the process, the town planning, applications, the construction of the basement. So, we are talking about a few years down the road. But we also have other measures, like increasing our revenue through a wide range of revenue-generating measures, including exporting, selling our original IP. So, these are some of the measures that we will step up. And in the interim, we also have to borrow from banks to have the funds to catch, to tie over these few years.

Chan: Right. When do you see sort of achieving your target of hitting the optimal income versus expenditure? How long would it take?

Fung: That would take a bit of time, yeah, because as I said, the commercial portfolio, we have so much, 366,000 square meters. And we will roll them out in packages. So, that would take about another 10 to 15 years to complete the commercial portfolio in the district. So, the next 10 years, I would say, is both challenging, but at the same time it is the golden 10 years for West Kowloon. We will push ahead with all the initiatives, whether it is for the public good, for fostering Hong Kong as an “East-meets-West” center for international cultural exchange as well as commercializing arts and culture, a very important objective given to us by the CE in his Policy Address.

Chan: Right. Betty, you also mentioned that because of the financial constraint and sort of a final batch of the West Kowloon has been sort of on hold for the time being. Without that, will the development of Hong Kong's “East-meets-West” culture work be delayed further or it won't?

Fung: I don't think so, because it is already … we have opened four and we are about to open the next one, which is the largest performing arts center in West Kowloon. So, by that time, we will be able to cover all art forms, all performing arts forms. And we have two museums, one is traditional, one is contemporary. So, the West Kowloon Cultural District itself is already a very comprehensive cultural district with different types of offerings. And don't forget, we also have open space, we make very good use of our open space to do lots of programs: concerts, busking, as well as even as a market, arts market, or F&B market. One example is the Coffee Fest, which the financial secretary has also mentioned. It is the first time in Hong Kong, in West Kowloon, but we attracted over 50,000 visitors during those four days. And so I think we are making use of both indoor and outdoor spaces for curating arts and cultural programs.

Chan: Well, the one final question I'd like to ask you is, some of us who have been to the M+ Museum, the more contemporary arts, we find it difficult to understand or appreciate it. Do you have any guided tours or any curators to help us on that?

Fung: We do. We have lots of tours, free of charge. If you come to a certain time, we have curators and also docents guiding you through. We also have QR codes, we also have an audio guide. But I think some people have the general impression that contemporary visual arts is difficult to understand. Of course, it is something interesting, you are not so exposed to. But I will encourage all of us to take a very open attitude, open mind, to see things that you are not used to, not traditional arts, not Palace Museum treasures, but see things that you haven't seen and then it will encourage you to think differently when you see new items, new exhibits.

Chan: Right, Betty, thank you for joining us. West Kowloon Cultural District is clearly central to Hong Kong's vision as an “East-meets-West” hub for culture and creativity. We look forward to seeing how the district continues to grow and connect Hong Kong with the world. That is all for Straight Talk from me, Eugene Chan, and see you next time!